Problems after completion that vendor knew about
Discussion
We bought a house in Dec 18. After moving in the boiler has lost pressure every 2 days, meaning we have to top it up, or we wake up with no heating/hot water. Obviously the problem was there before we moved in and that's just unlucky I thought.
From speaking with the neighbours, it sounds like the vendor had complained to them he was having problems with the heating system and bought a new boiler, but that didn't fix it.
We've just lived with it, until a few months ago I found an invoice and investigation results from a leak detection specialist who came and checked the property and carried out some tests for the fee of £600. They checked all pipes (or the walls and floor where the pipes are) and couldn't find any leaks, they then put some gas in the system to check the radiator for leaks and the results were to replace some radiators.
We've replaced some and relocated some where the pipes ran through concrete and we're still having the same problem. If not worse now strangely.
I am sure the answer is no, but given we have proof they knew of a problem, are we able to take any action against them? Or is it 'buyer beware'.
From speaking with the neighbours, it sounds like the vendor had complained to them he was having problems with the heating system and bought a new boiler, but that didn't fix it.
We've just lived with it, until a few months ago I found an invoice and investigation results from a leak detection specialist who came and checked the property and carried out some tests for the fee of £600. They checked all pipes (or the walls and floor where the pipes are) and couldn't find any leaks, they then put some gas in the system to check the radiator for leaks and the results were to replace some radiators.
We've replaced some and relocated some where the pipes ran through concrete and we're still having the same problem. If not worse now strangely.
I am sure the answer is no, but given we have proof they knew of a problem, are we able to take any action against them? Or is it 'buyer beware'.
Edited by alistair1234 on Friday 6th March 16:10
alistair1234 said:
I am sure the answer is no, but given we have proof they knew of a problem, are we able to take any action against them? Or is it 'buyer beware'.
Perhaps.But realistically if they simply say that they believe the problem was fixed after the diagnosis that they had done, then how would you prove otherwise?
What would be your monetary loss and how would it be evidenced? What would you ultimately be looking for in terms of a resolution when making a claim?
It's definitely not a black and white case and small claims involves months of documents going backwards and forwards. If you can't easily quantify the loss or prove anything clearly and unambiguously then you're probably just going to end up not really getting anywhere, and at significant unrecoverable cost if you end up instructing a solicitor.
C’mon mate time to get real, you moved there more than 2 years ago and now started to have a problem, l doubt it was there at the time and even if it was, proving it will be nigh on impossible
Edit
Sorry misread the part where you said it has been doing it since you moved, not sure it changes anything though
Edit
Sorry misread the part where you said it has been doing it since you moved, not sure it changes anything though
Edited by martinbiz on Friday 6th March 17:59
Normally there is documentation from the solicitors that has a list of questions that are answered by the vendor.
One of the questions is usually. "Is the central heating system in good working order and free from any defects"? and the vendor answers the question.
Did you not see any such documentation.
One of the questions is usually. "Is the central heating system in good working order and free from any defects"? and the vendor answers the question.
Did you not see any such documentation.
You mentioned pipes in concrete, I did some work on a similarly constructed property some years ago, the system was leaking as was evidenced by a damp spot in the kitchen floor. I exposed the leaking pipe & repaired it, advised the client (who was the girlfriend of a good mate) that all the pipes should be replaced in the near future.
A few months later they had a completely new heating system fitted by someone else, I was visiting & commented on the new radiators, I asked about the pipework & got told "they said the old pipes were fine" & that the plumber who fitted the new boiler & rads reckoned I was looking for work. Less than a month later it failed, catastrophic leak, she asked me if I could sort it out, I was too busy & suggested she call the expert.
A combination of old copper pipes, soldered joints where the flux may not have been cleaned off & hidden in concrete means either digging up the floor (the pipes are normally around the perimeter) to replace them, running new pipework on the surface, or pulling down the ceilings & running them through the joists.
A few months later they had a completely new heating system fitted by someone else, I was visiting & commented on the new radiators, I asked about the pipework & got told "they said the old pipes were fine" & that the plumber who fitted the new boiler & rads reckoned I was looking for work. Less than a month later it failed, catastrophic leak, she asked me if I could sort it out, I was too busy & suggested she call the expert.
A combination of old copper pipes, soldered joints where the flux may not have been cleaned off & hidden in concrete means either digging up the floor (the pipes are normally around the perimeter) to replace them, running new pipework on the surface, or pulling down the ceilings & running them through the joists.
We had this problem from the other side.
The purchases of one of our rentals came after us "as there was no gas CH system left at the property".
No, damm right there wasn't that was why we had answered "Not Applicable" to all the relevant questions. Unfortunately their solicitor had short handed the survey we had signed and passed back via our solicitors and the vendor (petrol head, who failed to notice the big oil tank in the garden) thought N/A meant a non aspirated gas system.
I'd bet you though in your case 5p to the pound you have either a leaky expansion vessel or heat exchanger. I had a radiator burst recently and that dropped the pressure really quick. Each time I topped the boiler up it lost pressure in 24 hrs. However, when I measured the amount of water I was topping up by, over two weeks I only added 250-350 ml back into my circuit (it still caused £2,000 to a suspended wooden floor).
The purchases of one of our rentals came after us "as there was no gas CH system left at the property".
No, damm right there wasn't that was why we had answered "Not Applicable" to all the relevant questions. Unfortunately their solicitor had short handed the survey we had signed and passed back via our solicitors and the vendor (petrol head, who failed to notice the big oil tank in the garden) thought N/A meant a non aspirated gas system.
I'd bet you though in your case 5p to the pound you have either a leaky expansion vessel or heat exchanger. I had a radiator burst recently and that dropped the pressure really quick. Each time I topped the boiler up it lost pressure in 24 hrs. However, when I measured the amount of water I was topping up by, over two weeks I only added 250-350 ml back into my circuit (it still caused £2,000 to a suspended wooden floor).
We bought a house in July 2018 with multiple undisclosed issues, which have cost us around £5000 to resolve. When we realised, we were incredibly angry, and probably made arses of ourselves looking to blame anyone but us. Ultimately, life took over, and we've done nothing about it.
I'm still tempted to try a speculative small claim to see what happens, but I suspect we'll continue to do nothing about it. At the end of the day, you're probably looking at a tiny fraction of the cost of the house, moving and stamp duty. Hopefully karma will kick the vendor in the nuts in the future, and the world will continue to turn.
I'm still tempted to try a speculative small claim to see what happens, but I suspect we'll continue to do nothing about it. At the end of the day, you're probably looking at a tiny fraction of the cost of the house, moving and stamp duty. Hopefully karma will kick the vendor in the nuts in the future, and the world will continue to turn.
Because someone else has mentioned it, let me elaborate on my expansion vessel comment...........
Water expands when heated, the expansion vessel gives the water space to expand, if this is not pressurised properly then the water expands to the point where the pressure is too high and the pressure valve which is designed to protect the system releases the excess pressure, then when it all cools down again you've lost water and the pressure is too low, so boiler cuts out.
If you watch the pipe outside when it's running and you see a water dripping out, then that's probably a good sign of expansion vessel problems.
Water expands when heated, the expansion vessel gives the water space to expand, if this is not pressurised properly then the water expands to the point where the pressure is too high and the pressure valve which is designed to protect the system releases the excess pressure, then when it all cools down again you've lost water and the pressure is too low, so boiler cuts out.
If you watch the pipe outside when it's running and you see a water dripping out, then that's probably a good sign of expansion vessel problems.
lyonspride said:
Sure it's not something simple like the boiler expansion vessel needs re-pressurising? it seems like you've been following the lines of the previous owner, who may have been lied to for profit.
I got the boiler serviced as soon as I moved in and that was one of the things that was checked which was ok.The neighbour said he got the boiler installed to fix the issue, so would be really unlucky that 2 boilers would be faulty including the brand new one.
I also rang the boiler manufacturer and they confirmed they came out to do a warranty visit after it was installed to check all ok and it was. They are actually coming out again tomorrow free of charge but I’m expecting it to be given the ok again.
shovelheadrob said:
You mentioned pipes in concrete, I did some work on a similarly constructed property some years ago, the system was leaking as was evidenced by a damp spot in the kitchen floor. I exposed the leaking pipe & repaired it, advised the client (who was the girlfriend of a good mate) that all the pipes should be replaced in the near future.
A few months later they had a completely new heating system fitted by someone else, I was visiting & commented on the new radiators, I asked about the pipework & got told "they said the old pipes were fine" & that the plumber who fitted the new boiler & rads reckoned I was looking for work. Less than a month later it failed, catastrophic leak, she asked me if I could sort it out, I was too busy & suggested she call the expert.
A combination of old copper pipes, soldered joints where the flux may not have been cleaned off & hidden in concrete means either digging up the floor (the pipes are normally around the perimeter) to replace them, running new pipework on the surface, or pulling down the ceilings & running them through the joists.
The one lot of pipes in concrete have been capped off and the radiator moved, so there isn’t any more in the property.A few months later they had a completely new heating system fitted by someone else, I was visiting & commented on the new radiators, I asked about the pipework & got told "they said the old pipes were fine" & that the plumber who fitted the new boiler & rads reckoned I was looking for work. Less than a month later it failed, catastrophic leak, she asked me if I could sort it out, I was too busy & suggested she call the expert.
A combination of old copper pipes, soldered joints where the flux may not have been cleaned off & hidden in concrete means either digging up the floor (the pipes are normally around the perimeter) to replace them, running new pipework on the surface, or pulling down the ceilings & running them through the joists.
There are no damp patches in any ceilings, so I’m assuming it’s a problem somewhere in the floor, which fortunately is suspended.
The other slightly fortunate thing (if you can say that), is in the kitchen the grout in between the tiles has all broken since we moved in and it’s become apparent it was regrouted to hide the issue before we viewed and bought. What it looks like has happened is they haven’t laid thick enough ply underneath or they haven’t used flexible adhesive, so we’ve got to rip the floor up and replace along with a new kitchen which will give is a good chance to see if anything has happened in the suspended floor underneath, especially where they knocked through a kitchen and dining room and relocated the radiators.
I’ve just been through all this, pressure dropping and Worcester have been out 3 times over the last 6 months but it turned out I had a leak under the concrete, tiled, heated downstairs toilet floor which wasn’t visible (had to get a guy with listening gear out to find it) which fixed it for a month only for the pressure to start dropping again..this time it was the heat exchanger.
This was a completely new system before I in moved apparently..So I feel your pain op!
This was a completely new system before I in moved apparently..So I feel your pain op!
When I moved in my current house the boiler was serviced and ticked as ok on the solicitor documents. First bath ran luke warm. Turns out boiler was knackered. I replaced it and never even considered going after the sellers.
I'm now paranoid as I'm selling the house currently and although everything is fine i could so without someone coming after me 2 years later for stuff, didnt think you could to be honest
I'm now paranoid as I'm selling the house currently and although everything is fine i could so without someone coming after me 2 years later for stuff, didnt think you could to be honest
alistair1234 said:
We bought a house in Dec 18.......
martinbiz said:
C’mon mate time to get real, you moved there more than 2 years ago and now started to have a problem........]
jonwm said:
......I'm now paranoid as I'm selling the house currently and although everything is fine i could so without someone coming after me 2 years later for stuff, didnt think you could to be honest
If the house in question was purchased in December 2018, how in the world of calendars and mathematics, is December 2018, to @ the first week in March 2020, two years? 
It's @ 14months, or just over a year by my reckoning.
My understanding is that once you complete the house purchase then you’re pretty much on your own. I was advised on my last purchase to revisit the house the day before and after exchange and the day before completion just to check that the vendor hadn’t smashed the place up. I didn’t bother, but it was interesting advice.
I’ll confess to selling a house in the mid-90s that had a boiler that was absolutely shagged and I knew it. As far as I was concerned the moment the house completed, then I was off the hook.
I’ll confess to selling a house in the mid-90s that had a boiler that was absolutely shagged and I knew it. As far as I was concerned the moment the house completed, then I was off the hook.
So just to give this thread a bit more detail as i've got all the documentation in front of me.
The previous vendor had the boiler installed in Nov 16 and then had the manufacturer out to try and fix the issue in early 2017 for the same issue - I don't have documentation, i've just been told this by the boiler manufacturer, they might be able to provide it to me.
We then viewed the property when it was up for sale.
They completed a buyers report on 18/8/18 stating that the heating was in good working order.
The documentation I found from the leak detection specialist was dated 31/10/18
We then exchanged on 3/12/18
We completed 7/12/18
So they had known for a couple of years there was an issue but completed the buyers report inaccurately. Where do I stand?
The previous vendor had the boiler installed in Nov 16 and then had the manufacturer out to try and fix the issue in early 2017 for the same issue - I don't have documentation, i've just been told this by the boiler manufacturer, they might be able to provide it to me.
We then viewed the property when it was up for sale.
They completed a buyers report on 18/8/18 stating that the heating was in good working order.
The documentation I found from the leak detection specialist was dated 31/10/18
We then exchanged on 3/12/18
We completed 7/12/18
So they had known for a couple of years there was an issue but completed the buyers report inaccurately. Where do I stand?
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