So In Times Of Crisis We’re All Socialists Now?
Discussion
Government paying the wages...buying up beds from the private sector to supplement the NHS...deferring taxes...increasing the social security payments...and next up bailing out the Airlines...
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
Gadgetmac said:
Government paying the wages...buying up beds from the private sector to supplement the NHS...deferring taxes...increasing the social security payments...and next up bailing out the Airlines...
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
And the problem is what? From what I've been seeing and hearing its exactly what the people appear to want at a time of national crisis. I've no doubt the economists and idealists on the right are horrified, as are those who've done very well out of decades of capitalism for fear their accumulated wealth will be at risk in order to get us back on track over the coming years. If we were the only country affected, I may have some sympathy that we'll come out of it with significant competitive and material disadvantage, however, as this is a global crisis and many western countries are also taking a similar strategy, sure we'll take some time to recover, but we shouldn't be in much different a position than our peers. Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
I for one am glad the state is throwing us a lifeline to keep the country on life support rather than let so many aspects of our economy collapse. I'm also rather glad they've quickly come to realise the answer has to be saving the main street, not bunging a fortune at the banks to save wall street and hope it filters down.
biggles330d said:
Gadgetmac said:
Government paying the wages...buying up beds from the private sector to supplement the NHS...deferring taxes...increasing the social security payments...and next up bailing out the Airlines...
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
And the problem is what? From what I've been seeing and hearing its exactly what the people appear to want at a time of national crisis. I've no doubt the economists and idealists on the right are horrified, as are those who've done very well out of decades of capitalism for fear their accumulated wealth will be at risk in order to get us back on track over the coming years. If we were the only country affected, I may have some sympathy that we'll come out of it with significant competitive and material disadvantage, however, as this is a global crisis and many western countries are also taking a similar strategy, sure we'll take some time to recover, but we shouldn't be in much different a position than our peers. Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
I for one am glad the state is throwing us a lifeline to keep the country on life support rather than let so many aspects of our economy collapse. I'm also rather glad they've quickly come to realise the answer has to be saving the main street, not bunging a fortune at the banks to save wall street and hope it filters down.
This is a crisis that requires us to have a massive impact on our economy.
It seems the best way to both deal with the CV problem and protect our economy is this kind of govt support. You can't effectively shut down everything and expect it to pop back up again with no support. Some industries just can't carry on as they are, it's at odds with the demands of CV control.
Yes it will saddle the govt with huge debt, but also offers perhaps the best way to keep things ticking over until everything can return to some kind of normal later this year or 2021.
Plus they haven't really got a choice, have they?
It seems the best way to both deal with the CV problem and protect our economy is this kind of govt support. You can't effectively shut down everything and expect it to pop back up again with no support. Some industries just can't carry on as they are, it's at odds with the demands of CV control.
Yes it will saddle the govt with huge debt, but also offers perhaps the best way to keep things ticking over until everything can return to some kind of normal later this year or 2021.
Plus they haven't really got a choice, have they?
I think this will be similar to 2008 - that was the largest ever transfer of public funds into private hands, so was very much a capitalists dream come true! Spend all the cash, get bailed out and never pay it back, job jobbed!
Now, especially for the bigger corps, they'll have huge handouts, and then massive tax write offs for years to come - so it's not socialist at all. The companies are having their bills paid, not their shares purchased. The latter would be a state takeover.
Now, especially for the bigger corps, they'll have huge handouts, and then massive tax write offs for years to come - so it's not socialist at all. The companies are having their bills paid, not their shares purchased. The latter would be a state takeover.
RemarkLima said:
I think this will be similar to 2008 - that was the largest ever transfer of public funds into private hands, so was very much a capitalists dream come true! Spend all the cash, get bailed out and never pay it back, job jobbed!
Sorry for my ignorance, which firms got bailed out and never had to pay anything back?I'm fairly far to the right economically - yet this response is absolutely stunning.
After all, it's protecting the basis of the productive economy during a time of external threat.
I know nobody who is an "ultra capitalist", desiring zero government protections or interventions in a completely unfettered free market.
It's nowhere near that binary, and on the sliding scale, this feels absolutely right.
After all, it's protecting the basis of the productive economy during a time of external threat.
I know nobody who is an "ultra capitalist", desiring zero government protections or interventions in a completely unfettered free market.
It's nowhere near that binary, and on the sliding scale, this feels absolutely right.
Gadgetmac said:
Government paying the wages...buying up beds from the private sector to supplement the NHS...deferring taxes...increasing the social security payments...and next up bailing out the Airlines...
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
Not convinced by the socialism label any more than we became socialist in WW2. I see it as an extension of the concept of the Bank of England being the lender of last resort, just bypassing the banks this time. Even in 2008 (and pretty much ever since) people have been screaming that QE is 'giving money to banks', which it isn't. What's happening now is unprecedented but it's not 'socialist'.Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
fblm said:
Gadgetmac said:
Government paying the wages...buying up beds from the private sector to supplement the NHS...deferring taxes...increasing the social security payments...and next up bailing out the Airlines...
Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
Not convinced by the socialism label any more than we became socialist in WW2. I see it as an extension of the concept of the Bank of England being the lender of last resort, just bypassing the banks this time. Even in 2008 (and pretty much ever since) people have been screaming that QE is 'giving money to banks', which it isn't. What's happening now is unprecedented but it's not 'socialist'.Well, nobodies complaining given the circumstances and quite rightly too but many a capitalist is now relying on a socialist hand out.
Welcome to the (Temporary) Peoples Socialist Republic of Great Britain.
https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/opinion/op...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/17/no...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/opinion/coronav...
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/...
fblm said:
Not convinced by the socialism label any more than we became socialist in WW2. I see it as an extension of the concept of the Bank of England being the lender of last resort, just bypassing the banks this time. Even in 2008 (and pretty much ever since) people have been screaming that QE is 'giving money to banks', which it isn't. What's happening now is unprecedented but it's not 'socialist'.
I see it as the government(s) asking nation states to take a 3month deep breath / shutdown. If it's the state asking, in some ways it has put in place the financial mechanism to allow that pause / smooth out bump. It's not socialism but a black swan event. How of course this is ultimately paid for, is going to be the subject of much debate. Personally I think ultra long dated crisis bonds, with an international agreement on the maturity profile.
We were set for decades of low growth / low interest rates prior to Corona, over decades the cost can be inflated away. I am wary that some nationstates we see this as an excuse for an aggressive tax raid. Might make discussion at the OECD re taxing tech giants interesting, they are set to benefit from the shutdown...
rm163603 said:
All the other times where printing money has been tried as a solution didn't end well.
State involvement in private businesses isn't likely to end up delivering a better solution for the consumer.
I feel like the central banks have painted us into a corner we can't now get out of.
The printers are going to be in overdrive to pay for it allState involvement in private businesses isn't likely to end up delivering a better solution for the consumer.
I feel like the central banks have painted us into a corner we can't now get out of.
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