COVID contract caper, sanity check this for me please.
Discussion
My wife has worked for the same firm for many years. Latterly she has done fixed-term contracts and is in one currently. They offered her a sequential one for a year, starting later this year, but now seem to be wriggling in light of COVID.
They offered her the position, on agreed terms, she accepted. They haven't issued paper contracts, which is quite normal because they are usually late with such things.
My view is that in the presence of offer, acceptance and agreed consideration a contract of employment has been formed and the employer shouldn't try to argue otherwise, just because it may no longer suit them to employ her.
There is adequate evidence of the offer, albeit it that it wasn't explicitly in writing.
Breadvan72 said:
Impossible to say without details of what was said or emailed etc.
She has a fixed term contract now, ending August."We would like you to do the same job again, on the same pay, for a further year starting from September".
To my mind, the basics of a contract are there; Offer, acceptance, consideration. The offer was not conditonal.
But I defer to your greater knowledge of the subject.
I am left to guess whether you are quoting a conversation, or an email, or whatever, and you have supplied the words (or a parapahrase of the words) of only one party.
It sounds like a deal was done, but why so cagey on the detail?
It sounds like a deal was done, but why so cagey on the detail?
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 1st April 16:21
Breadvan72 said:
I am left to guess whether you are quoting a conversation, or an email, or whatever, and you have supplied the words (or a parapahrase of the words) of only one party.
It sounds like a deal was done, but why so cagey on the detail?
Not trying to be cagey, what detail would you like?It sounds like a deal was done, but why so cagey on the detail?
Edited by Breadvan72 on Wednesday 1st April 16:21
The offer was made verbally in January, the meeting was my wife, the boss and his secretary.
She wanted part time, they said it couldn't happen. But they implored her to take a full-time 1-year contract.
She discussed it with me at length, we worked out the opportunity cost, and she decided to take it.
Another meeting with the boss and the secretary and the acceptance was agreed.
No paper contracts have arrived. But they rarely do until the 11th hour. Sometimes the 12th.
Wife receives email last week implying that all staff posts may be reviewed and people shuffled. Mention of "difficult decisions".
I emailed her boss on her behalf yesterday, setting out what was agreed.
He replied to her not denying anything I said.
She is writing to HR to put them on notice that she has a contract of employment, but no papers.
That help at all?
Edited by So on Wednesday 1st April 16:33
mondeoman said:
Is there anything, anything at all, in writing or an email where they make and offer and she emails or writes back accepting it?
Verbal is b
ks, whats in writing...???
The original offer was verbal, as was acceptance. It always is. The contracts tend to land just before, or sometimes after, the start of the contract.Verbal is b
ks, whats in writing...???When a standard email came out about "difficult decisions in light of COVID" Mrs So emailed back saying, "of course you haven't forgotten that I have a contract for 20-21, please ensure that I get papers".
There was no denial of the agreement in the reply, but plenty of "you need to accept that times are hard blah blah".
I emailed on her behalf earlier this week, pointing out exactly what was agreed and when. The response has been "don't worry we won't be changing anything without HR's agreement".
So, any reasonable person looking at the situation would take the view that on the balance of probabilities a contract was agreed.
I must stress that they may NOT try to renege. She is quite good at what she does and they kind of need her. But when anyone starts being a bit backslidey I become twitchy.
Why on earth did you “email on her behalf” and what did you say?
Surely it would have been better if she had emailed (or, better still phoned) since the contract (if there is one - as above, there is insufficient detail above) is with her not you.
If I got an email from the spouse of someone I employed regarding their contract I would just delete it.
Surely it would have been better if she had emailed (or, better still phoned) since the contract (if there is one - as above, there is insufficient detail above) is with her not you.
If I got an email from the spouse of someone I employed regarding their contract I would just delete it.
85Carrera said:
Why on earth did you “email on her behalf” and what did you say?
Surely it would have been better if she had emailed (or, better still phoned) since the contract (if there is one - as above, there is insufficient detail above) is with her not you.
If I got an email from the spouse of someone I employed regarding their contract I would just delete it.
Because I deal with the contract stuff in the family and they would not have believed that she had sent the email anyway.Surely it would have been better if she had emailed (or, better still phoned) since the contract (if there is one - as above, there is insufficient detail above) is with her not you.
If I got an email from the spouse of someone I employed regarding their contract I would just delete it.
There are other reasons why it was apposite for me to mail, but they aren't relevant and it won't help anyone answer my question.
I can see no basis upon which they can deny that a contract exists. Does anyone disagree? Outside of lack of written offer, that is. But the lack of denial in email correspondence would be enough I think to evidence intent.
zippy3x said:
So said:
zippy3x said:
Does she have a contract for her current engagement? Is there a notice period in it?
Yes and no.And to be clear, there is no way of terminating the contract?
Does your wife really want to force her services on an employer that doesn't want them?
Even if you can argue that there is a binding contract what are the notice provisions. If they need to give 3 months notice of termination of the contract starting in August they can do that tomorrow and she never starts.
If it was a contract starting on Monday you would be in a different position but I think you are wasting your time with this one. Preserve the relationship and there will probably be more work there when Corona settles down, upset them and there won't be.
Even if you can argue that there is a binding contract what are the notice provisions. If they need to give 3 months notice of termination of the contract starting in August they can do that tomorrow and she never starts.
If it was a contract starting on Monday you would be in a different position but I think you are wasting your time with this one. Preserve the relationship and there will probably be more work there when Corona settles down, upset them and there won't be.
So said:
Because I deal with the contract stuff in the family and they would not have believed that she had sent the email anyway.
There are other reasons why it was apposite for me to mail, but they aren't relevant and it won't help anyone answer my question.
I can see no basis upon which they can deny that a contract exists. Does anyone disagree? Outside of lack of written offer, that is. But the lack of denial in email correspondence would be enough I think to evidence intent.
Why wouldn't they believe she had sent the email?There are other reasons why it was apposite for me to mail, but they aren't relevant and it won't help anyone answer my question.
I can see no basis upon which they can deny that a contract exists. Does anyone disagree? Outside of lack of written offer, that is. But the lack of denial in email correspondence would be enough I think to evidence intent.
Guys, I am not going to go into details about the relationship between her and the firm, the personalities involved or any other irrelevance. Suffice it to say it's not an employer where being nice wins prizes. There is nothing to lose by being assertive.
Viewing it from a contractual perspective only, can anyone offer any reason why a contract does not exist?
You don't have a contract in writing.
It sounds like your view is that a verbal contract (possibly corroborated by some emails) might be sufficient to form a binding contract. It may well do (IANAL). However I'd be surprised if this doesn't have a notice period. So my guess is that if you took them to Court that's the most you could end up with. There's a risk that you would fork out time and legal fees and still lose. I would suggest putting it behind you and moving on.
p.s. Am I the only person whose first thought is that people are indicating their sexual proclivities when they type "IANAL"?
Anyway just to confirm, IANAL.......
It sounds like your view is that a verbal contract (possibly corroborated by some emails) might be sufficient to form a binding contract. It may well do (IANAL). However I'd be surprised if this doesn't have a notice period. So my guess is that if you took them to Court that's the most you could end up with. There's a risk that you would fork out time and legal fees and still lose. I would suggest putting it behind you and moving on.
p.s. Am I the only person whose first thought is that people are indicating their sexual proclivities when they type "IANAL"?
Anyway just to confirm, IANAL.......
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