Fake guitar question
Discussion
I'm a member of a small guitar forum and I put up an ad for a guitar for sale. The guitar was a Fender Classic 60s Telecaster ( a modern pastiche), consisting of the original Fender body and a later replacement Fender neck - both legit parts.
The ad was taken down on the basis that the guitar is fake or counterfeit under their rules which state that a Fender neck attached to a non-Fender body breaks the rules, although they don't state that a Fender neck attached to a Fender Body also breaks the rules.
I have no problem with the ad being taken down for breaking the rules, and I have no problem with their rules, but does the guitar actually qualify as a fake or counterfeit item? Obviously, the forum is wary of inviting the wrath of the big corporations upon its-self for allowing fake goods to be sold and it enforces this stuff quite vigorously. We are not talking here though of fake Rolexes and the like being sold for £19.99 in the market and, very clearly illegal.
Recently David Gilmour (guitar player with The Pink Floyd m'lud) sold a number of his guitars including his "Black Strat". This particular model has been reproduced by Fender and sold in limited editions around the world. Trouble is, like Eric Clapton's "Blackie" (also reproduced and sold around the world by Fender) it's a "bitsa" or a "partscaster" and consists of many parts of which the only original one is the body, and even that has been buggered about a lot.
So, to the question; could Fender, having knowingly allowed bitsas to be sold on the open market for huge sums, and which has made copies of these bitsas for sale around the world for not inconsiderable sums its-self, realistically claim that a guitar consisting of one of its bodies and an aftermarket, genuine Fender neck, was a fake or counterfeit?
The ad was taken down on the basis that the guitar is fake or counterfeit under their rules which state that a Fender neck attached to a non-Fender body breaks the rules, although they don't state that a Fender neck attached to a Fender Body also breaks the rules.
I have no problem with the ad being taken down for breaking the rules, and I have no problem with their rules, but does the guitar actually qualify as a fake or counterfeit item? Obviously, the forum is wary of inviting the wrath of the big corporations upon its-self for allowing fake goods to be sold and it enforces this stuff quite vigorously. We are not talking here though of fake Rolexes and the like being sold for £19.99 in the market and, very clearly illegal.
Recently David Gilmour (guitar player with The Pink Floyd m'lud) sold a number of his guitars including his "Black Strat". This particular model has been reproduced by Fender and sold in limited editions around the world. Trouble is, like Eric Clapton's "Blackie" (also reproduced and sold around the world by Fender) it's a "bitsa" or a "partscaster" and consists of many parts of which the only original one is the body, and even that has been buggered about a lot.
So, to the question; could Fender, having knowingly allowed bitsas to be sold on the open market for huge sums, and which has made copies of these bitsas for sale around the world for not inconsiderable sums its-self, realistically claim that a guitar consisting of one of its bodies and an aftermarket, genuine Fender neck, was a fake or counterfeit?
This feels like a strange question. Are you wondering if the rules of some guitar selling forum apply in some way to the rest of the world?
I would think that the rights owners (fender) would only ever be interested in a thing described to deceive and "rip off" prime buying it thinking it was something it wasn't.
A guitar made of different bits made by fender described generically I would think doesn't count. It you claimed it to be a super original matching parts, special edition then you'd be guilty of mis describing it. Not sure even then it they would be interested.
Bert
I would think that the rights owners (fender) would only ever be interested in a thing described to deceive and "rip off" prime buying it thinking it was something it wasn't.
A guitar made of different bits made by fender described generically I would think doesn't count. It you claimed it to be a super original matching parts, special edition then you'd be guilty of mis describing it. Not sure even then it they would be interested.
Bert
BertBert said:
This feels like a strange question. Are you wondering if the rules of some guitar selling forum apply in some way to the rest of the world?
I would think that the rights owners (fender) would only ever be interested in a thing described to deceive and "rip off" prime buying it thinking it was something it wasn't.
A guitar made of different bits made by fender described generically I would think doesn't count. It you claimed it to be a super original matching parts, special edition then you'd be guilty of mis describing it. Not sure even then it they would be interested.
Bert
I know that the rules the forum imposes on members are specific to the forum. I would think that the rights owners (fender) would only ever be interested in a thing described to deceive and "rip off" prime buying it thinking it was something it wasn't.
A guitar made of different bits made by fender described generically I would think doesn't count. It you claimed it to be a super original matching parts, special edition then you'd be guilty of mis describing it. Not sure even then it they would be interested.
Bert
My question is probably in two parts: one; is my guitar counterfeit in the eyes of the law and could trading standards reasonably hope to prosecute the forum for allowing it to be advertised there and, two, given its attitude to some guitars, could Fender come after the forum for selling guitars which the forum considers counterfeit but which the law probably doesn't.
The first question is my main interest.
rlw said:
I know that the rules the forum imposes on members are specific to the forum.
My question is probably in two parts: one; is my guitar counterfeit in the eyes of the law and could trading standards reasonably hope to prosecute the forum for allowing it to be advertised there and, two, given its attitude to some guitars, could Fender come after the forum for selling guitars which the forum considers counterfeit but which the law probably doesn't.
The first question is my main interest.
No, if you describe it correctly it is not counterfeit.My question is probably in two parts: one; is my guitar counterfeit in the eyes of the law and could trading standards reasonably hope to prosecute the forum for allowing it to be advertised there and, two, given its attitude to some guitars, could Fender come after the forum for selling guitars which the forum considers counterfeit but which the law probably doesn't.
The first question is my main interest.
If it’s described as a 60s fender body with later 70s neck (or whatever) and it’s is priced commensurate with this then you are not selling a fake.
If you sell it as a 60s fender in original condition (assuming the value of this is way higher than the other guitar?) then you might have issues.
I would imagine that a lot of guitars from the 60s or 70s are no longer 100 original.
Selling one guitar even if it is fake would not attract TS attention, shipping 25000 fakes from China might.
nikaiyo2 said:
No, if you describe it correctly it is not counterfeit.
If it’s described as a 60s fender body with later 70s neck (or whatever) and it’s is priced commensurate with this then you are not selling a fake.
If you sell it as a 60s fender in original condition (assuming the value of this is way higher than the other guitar?) then you might have issues.
I would imagine that a lot of guitars from the 60s or 70s are no longer 100 original.
Selling one guitar even if it is fake would not attract TS attention, shipping 25000 fakes from China might.
My thoughts too...If it’s described as a 60s fender body with later 70s neck (or whatever) and it’s is priced commensurate with this then you are not selling a fake.
If you sell it as a 60s fender in original condition (assuming the value of this is way higher than the other guitar?) then you might have issues.
I would imagine that a lot of guitars from the 60s or 70s are no longer 100 original.
Selling one guitar even if it is fake would not attract TS attention, shipping 25000 fakes from China might.
rlw said:
I'm a member of a small guitar forum and I put up an ad for a guitar for sale. The guitar was a Fender Classic 60s Telecaster ( a modern pastiche), consisting of the original Fender body and a later replacement Fender neck - both legit parts.
The ad was taken down on the basis that the guitar is fake or counterfeit under their rules which state that a Fender neck attached to a non-Fender body breaks the rules, although they don't state that a Fender neck attached to a Fender Body also breaks the rules.
This is a debate you should be having with your forum's mods rather than a discussion on here.The ad was taken down on the basis that the guitar is fake or counterfeit under their rules which state that a Fender neck attached to a non-Fender body breaks the rules, although they don't state that a Fender neck attached to a Fender Body also breaks the rules.
As to whether TS would be interested, unless your forum is a major marketplace, TS doesn't have the resources to be bothered with it.
Wibblle - to find an old car in as new condition or stored from new is a very rare occurrence and will attract a high premium, used but totally original is more likely but still uncommon.
Motorbikes occasionally surface still packed in their factory shipping crate, many more than cars anyway.
However, totally original guitars and basses are not unusual, I have half a dozen or so forty year old guitars that are totally original, a couple have the receipt and hanging tags, one even has the original strings in the case,
This is not unusual at all, meaning that the buyer of a used guitar can reasonably expect it to be as it left the factory.
Fenders though are very easy to take apart and to a great degree these parts fit other Fenders from a wide age range. This meant that unscrupulous people would take a valuable old guitar and by using a newer cheaper body and neck make two valuable guitars from one original.
Google Music Ground for a blatant example!
Anyhow this sort of fakery is why that particular forum has this rule.
Motorbikes occasionally surface still packed in their factory shipping crate, many more than cars anyway.
However, totally original guitars and basses are not unusual, I have half a dozen or so forty year old guitars that are totally original, a couple have the receipt and hanging tags, one even has the original strings in the case,
This is not unusual at all, meaning that the buyer of a used guitar can reasonably expect it to be as it left the factory.
Fenders though are very easy to take apart and to a great degree these parts fit other Fenders from a wide age range. This meant that unscrupulous people would take a valuable old guitar and by using a newer cheaper body and neck make two valuable guitars from one original.
Google Music Ground for a blatant example!
Anyhow this sort of fakery is why that particular forum has this rule.
Red Devil said:
This is a debate you should be having with your forum's mods rather than a discussion on here.
As to whether TS would be interested, unless your forum is a major marketplace, TS doesn't have the resources to be bothered with it.
No. It's their rule and I'm fine with it being a rule. No point in upsetting the applecart. It really is a question or whether, or not, the rule is based on anything concrete.As to whether TS would be interested, unless your forum is a major marketplace, TS doesn't have the resources to be bothered with it.
Many in the world of guitars and related instruments are like the concourse car jihadists who go around pointing out that a car has an anachronistic air freshener hanging from the mirror or the wrong flavour of screenwash. Years ago I remember people arguing over which bass was better when talking about two identical instruments, mass produced in two different factories from the same parts (so hardly comparing the relative merits of the craftsmanship of two renowned luthiers). I've got a feeling that was a Fender too!
If the description is honest and you aren't passing off your guitar as something it isn't, then there's nothing wrong with what you are doing. However, if you are using someone else's website to sell it then you need to play by their rules (written or unwritten).
If the description is honest and you aren't passing off your guitar as something it isn't, then there's nothing wrong with what you are doing. However, if you are using someone else's website to sell it then you need to play by their rules (written or unwritten).
KAgantua said:
OP stop pulling the heart strings - you got it in the neck from the listing site and are now upset.
Not at all. I'm fine with it but bemused and posted here to see if anyone could actually say whether, or not, it's a fake in the eyes of the law.Bemused because I'm not allowed to advertise a Fender guitar showing a Fender logo on the neck (which was bought from Fender). If that wasn't there, I could advertise it freely.
It's advertised elsewhere as well, so no problem at all.
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