Low power brown-out protection
Discussion
I get a few of these, and they're not going away so I'm after two small UPS boxes, both low power. One will keep my Raspberry Pi and twin screens alive. The other will be for the router, small NAS, and central heating controller.
Brown-outs here tend to last 10-30 seconds, although we have had some last a few mins on rare occasions.
Amazon has a really small APC which looks perfect according to its spec and price but one comment said it was no good for brown-outs, without saying why.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IG2P92I/ref=cm_sw_r...
Anyone know about these things?
Brown-outs here tend to last 10-30 seconds, although we have had some last a few mins on rare occasions.
Amazon has a really small APC which looks perfect according to its spec and price but one comment said it was no good for brown-outs, without saying why.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IG2P92I/ref=cm_sw_r...
Anyone know about these things?
From https://www.apc.com/an/en/faqs/FA158811/ - Either of these two reasons:
Problem #5: Connected equipment does not accept a stepped-approximated sine wave.
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets dropped while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Back-UPS products output a step approximation of a sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above mentioned UPS's, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a ""stepped wave"". If it can't, then it will require a UPS which outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. APC UPS single phase models which do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS >700VA, Matrix-UPS, and the Symmetra LX.
Problem #6: The power supply in your equipment is faulty and incapable of handling the transfer time of the Back-UPS product
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets rebooted while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Depending on the model of the UPS, the transfer time (time it takes for the unit to transfer from On Line to On Battery) can vary anywhere from 2 milliseconds to 8 milliseconds. Modern computer and computer-related power supplies can ""ride through"" power outages as long as 10-20 milliseconds. Many, in fact, can last through a 50 millisecond gap in power. If the equipment is rebooting when the Back-UPS product transfers to On Battery operation, this may be the problem. Try to recreate the problem by connecting another device, pull the plug on the UPS (puts it on battery) to see if the new device stays up and running when the UPS goes to Battery. If it does, then its more likely that there is a problem with the power supply of the original piece of equipment. The manufacturer of the equipment will need to be inquired upon for further support in this situation.
Problem #5: Connected equipment does not accept a stepped-approximated sine wave.
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets dropped while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Back-UPS products output a step approximation of a sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above mentioned UPS's, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a ""stepped wave"". If it can't, then it will require a UPS which outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. APC UPS single phase models which do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS >700VA, Matrix-UPS, and the Symmetra LX.
Problem #6: The power supply in your equipment is faulty and incapable of handling the transfer time of the Back-UPS product
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets rebooted while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Depending on the model of the UPS, the transfer time (time it takes for the unit to transfer from On Line to On Battery) can vary anywhere from 2 milliseconds to 8 milliseconds. Modern computer and computer-related power supplies can ""ride through"" power outages as long as 10-20 milliseconds. Many, in fact, can last through a 50 millisecond gap in power. If the equipment is rebooting when the Back-UPS product transfers to On Battery operation, this may be the problem. Try to recreate the problem by connecting another device, pull the plug on the UPS (puts it on battery) to see if the new device stays up and running when the UPS goes to Battery. If it does, then its more likely that there is a problem with the power supply of the original piece of equipment. The manufacturer of the equipment will need to be inquired upon for further support in this situation.
On a basic UPS like that, it needs to see a fairly large drop of power before it senses the problem and clicks over onto running from the battery. It's either mains or battery from them.
More expensive ones (they used to be called 'online', might have changed) constantly run the power through their own battery and inverter so no matter what's going in, you always get 240v @ 50hz out. They are less power efficient though (because you are constantly doing ac->dc->ac in the unit).
More expensive ones (they used to be called 'online', might have changed) constantly run the power through their own battery and inverter so no matter what's going in, you always get 240v @ 50hz out. They are less power efficient though (because you are constantly doing ac->dc->ac in the unit).
Ah, I forgot about the sine wave bit. Yes, this looks like a bad idea.
Actually, I don't even need mains voltages for most of the kit. The router and NAS (glorified name for two HDDs in a small box) both use DC inputs, as does the RaspPi. It's only the screens that need mains.
I'll rethink this. Thanks.
Actually, I don't even need mains voltages for most of the kit. The router and NAS (glorified name for two HDDs in a small box) both use DC inputs, as does the RaspPi. It's only the screens that need mains.
I'll rethink this. Thanks.
Sheepshanks said:
From https://www.apc.com/an/en/faqs/FA158811/ - Either of these two reasons:
Problem #5: Connected equipment does not accept a stepped-approximated sine wave.
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets dropped while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Back-UPS products output a step approximation of a sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above mentioned UPS's, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a ""stepped wave"". If it can't, then it will require a UPS which outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. APC UPS single phase models which do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS >700VA, Matrix-UPS, and the Symmetra LX.
Problem #6: The power supply in your equipment is faulty and incapable of handling the transfer time of the Back-UPS product
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets rebooted while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Depending on the model of the UPS, the transfer time (time it takes for the unit to transfer from On Line to On Battery) can vary anywhere from 2 milliseconds to 8 milliseconds. Modern computer and computer-related power supplies can ""ride through"" power outages as long as 10-20 milliseconds. Many, in fact, can last through a 50 millisecond gap in power. If the equipment is rebooting when the Back-UPS product transfers to On Battery operation, this may be the problem. Try to recreate the problem by connecting another device, pull the plug on the UPS (puts it on battery) to see if the new device stays up and running when the UPS goes to Battery. If it does, then its more likely that there is a problem with the power supply of the original piece of equipment. The manufacturer of the equipment will need to be inquired upon for further support in this situation.
Those aren't anything to do with brownouts, just generic UPS problems. See my post above for the reason. Problem #5: Connected equipment does not accept a stepped-approximated sine wave.
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets dropped while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Back-UPS products output a step approximation of a sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above mentioned UPS's, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a ""stepped wave"". If it can't, then it will require a UPS which outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. APC UPS single phase models which do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS >700VA, Matrix-UPS, and the Symmetra LX.
Problem #6: The power supply in your equipment is faulty and incapable of handling the transfer time of the Back-UPS product
Investigation: This would be the case if only one of the pieces of equipment plugged into the battery backup outlets rebooted while the other equipment in the battery backup outlets stay on when the unit transferred o battery power.
Solution: Depending on the model of the UPS, the transfer time (time it takes for the unit to transfer from On Line to On Battery) can vary anywhere from 2 milliseconds to 8 milliseconds. Modern computer and computer-related power supplies can ""ride through"" power outages as long as 10-20 milliseconds. Many, in fact, can last through a 50 millisecond gap in power. If the equipment is rebooting when the Back-UPS product transfers to On Battery operation, this may be the problem. Try to recreate the problem by connecting another device, pull the plug on the UPS (puts it on battery) to see if the new device stays up and running when the UPS goes to Battery. If it does, then its more likely that there is a problem with the power supply of the original piece of equipment. The manufacturer of the equipment will need to be inquired upon for further support in this situation.
budgie smuggler said:
Those aren't anything to do with brownouts, just generic UPS problems. See my post above for the reason.
Sure, and as you explained, it's not a 'proper' UPS - there's a time gap where it changes over to the battery, which it points out in the second part of problem #6. That's likely to be the main issue (if there is one).I've got one, different model, but same thing.
Our issue is the voltage goes very high - it's sitting at 250V now and fairly often flicks over onto battery at 260V. Have router and NAS on it and never had an issue, although the NAS only runs on demand and I don't know if it's ever done while the NAS is running.
I got it because I lost a NAS and it turned out to have a unique file system and nothing was recoverable. the new one has two HDDs running a RAID setup so should be OK.
As it's on Amazon you could always buy it, test it by pulling the plug out, and if it doesn't work then sent it back
budgie smuggler said:
On a basic UPS like that, it needs to see a fairly large drop of power before it senses the problem and clicks over onto running from the battery. It's either mains or battery from them.
More expensive ones (they used to be called 'online', might have changed) constantly run the power through their own battery and inverter so no matter what's going in, you always get 240v @ 50hz out. They are less power efficient though (because you are constantly doing ac->dc->ac in the unit).
Yep More expensive ones (they used to be called 'online', might have changed) constantly run the power through their own battery and inverter so no matter what's going in, you always get 240v @ 50hz out. They are less power efficient though (because you are constantly doing ac->dc->ac in the unit).
Online double conversion is basically what you want for a non-interrupted mains supply. https://www.datacenterexperts.com/resources/white-...
I don't operate at sizes for your application, however the smallest UPS we provide is a 1kVA: https://www.kohler-ups.co.uk/ups/product/powerwave...
Others are available online, however if you are interested please PM me your details and I could have a price sorted on Tuesday.
Wow, weirdly my monitors (fairly old Dells) can accept a DC input too. So that's them, my laptop, Raspberry Pi, router and NAS. But if I can also power the Echo, heating controller and LightwaveRF controller, I'll be quite happy.
I quite fancy converting my mains to DC and supplying directly from the battery to each of the devices, so the battery will be on charge always.
I'll need two of these power supplies (kit in different rooms). I'll work out the voltage/current requirements tomorrow. I might be able to build something myself unless there's a cheap off the shelf power supply you'd recommend. A power bank that you leave connected to the mains, with some USB and 12v DC outputs might work. Must be able to supply enough power to two screens.
I quite fancy converting my mains to DC and supplying directly from the battery to each of the devices, so the battery will be on charge always.
I'll need two of these power supplies (kit in different rooms). I'll work out the voltage/current requirements tomorrow. I might be able to build something myself unless there's a cheap off the shelf power supply you'd recommend. A power bank that you leave connected to the mains, with some USB and 12v DC outputs might work. Must be able to supply enough power to two screens.
Edited by Watchman on Thursday 9th April 23:24
Sheepshanks said:
Sure, and as you explained, it's not a 'proper' UPS - there's a time gap where it changes over to the battery, which it points out in the second part of problem #6. That's likely to be the main issue (if there is one).
I've got one, different model, but same thing.
Our issue is the voltage goes very high - it's sitting at 250V now and fairly often flicks over onto battery at 260V. Have router and NAS on it and never had an issue, although the NAS only runs on demand and I don't know if it's ever done while the NAS is running.
I got it because I lost a NAS and it turned out to have a unique file system and nothing was recoverable. the new one has two HDDs running a RAID setup so should be OK.
As it's on Amazon you could always buy it, test it by pulling the plug out, and if it doesn't work then sent it back
If you can pull logs from your UPS, or get photos of an info panel when it's going over-voltage, get them to your electricity supplier or UK Power Networks... IME they come out and sort issues like this....I've got one, different model, but same thing.
Our issue is the voltage goes very high - it's sitting at 250V now and fairly often flicks over onto battery at 260V. Have router and NAS on it and never had an issue, although the NAS only runs on demand and I don't know if it's ever done while the NAS is running.
I got it because I lost a NAS and it turned out to have a unique file system and nothing was recoverable. the new one has two HDDs running a RAID setup so should be OK.
As it's on Amazon you could always buy it, test it by pulling the plug out, and if it doesn't work then sent it back
Watchman said:
Wow, weirdly my monitors (fairly old Dells) can accept a DC input too. So that's them, my laptop, Raspberry Pi, router and NAS. But if I can also power the Echo, heating controller and LightwaveRF controller, I'll be quite happy.
I quite fancy converting my mains to DC and supplying directly from the battery to each of the devices, so the battery will be on charge always.
I'll need two of these power supplies (kit in different rooms). I'll work out the voltage/current requirements tomorrow. I might be able to build something myself unless there's a cheap off the shelf power supply you'd recommend. A power bank that you leave connected to the mains, with some USB and 12v DC outputs might work. Must be able to supply enough power to two screens.
for the pi, just a decent sized usb battery pack will act as a ups, I have a couple running like that and also a few cloud keysI quite fancy converting my mains to DC and supplying directly from the battery to each of the devices, so the battery will be on charge always.
I'll need two of these power supplies (kit in different rooms). I'll work out the voltage/current requirements tomorrow. I might be able to build something myself unless there's a cheap off the shelf power supply you'd recommend. A power bank that you leave connected to the mains, with some USB and 12v DC outputs might work. Must be able to supply enough power to two screens.
Edited by Watchman on Thursday 9th April 23:24
for decent 12/24v battery backed up surge protected supplies look at elmdene fire and security power supplies.
For low cost pure sine wave ups units I have found powerjack units to be good, but large and heavy.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check that out. Agree with your recommendation for any battery supply for the Pi but I thought I'd need a bit more for the screens too.
However...
The monitors definitely need AC in. The DC connector is actually an output, designed to power a soundbar, apparently.
However...
The monitors definitely need AC in. The DC connector is actually an output, designed to power a soundbar, apparently.
I’ve used a fair few of these when you’ve got a lot of random low power gadgetry that needs UPS’ing, routers, cctv, phone systems, switches etc. They work well. Then a separate bigger one for any chunky servers.
APC by Schneider Electric Back-UPS ES - BE700G-UK - Uninterruptible Power Supply 700VA (8 Outlets, Surge protected) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002RXED6A/ref=cm_sw_r...
APC by Schneider Electric Back-UPS ES - BE700G-UK - Uninterruptible Power Supply 700VA (8 Outlets, Surge protected) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002RXED6A/ref=cm_sw_r...
The APC units are OK but expensive for what they do.
We changed from APC and use use hundreds of these things for various applications.
https://www.certaups.com/product/certaups-c60/
The C60 is offline with step wave, The C200 is sinewave so more suited to brownouts and voltage spike etc. I think we purchase direct from the manufacturer but you can get them online from Amazon or random online places. Also from memory I think they come with a long warranty.
We changed from APC and use use hundreds of these things for various applications.
https://www.certaups.com/product/certaups-c60/
The C60 is offline with step wave, The C200 is sinewave so more suited to brownouts and voltage spike etc. I think we purchase direct from the manufacturer but you can get them online from Amazon or random online places. Also from memory I think they come with a long warranty.
Thank you all for the recommendations and offers of help.
I have worked out that for downstairs, where the router sits, I actually need DC only... that being:
3x 12v (one being @3A, the others not especially significant)
1x 5V USB (no especially high current requirements)
I could probably do with something like a very small leisure battery and charger here, although a commercial solution would be neater.
Upstairs:
1x 5V/3A USB, although there is a UPS solution for the Raspberry Pi so I'll check that out.
I don't like the idea of stepped sinewave PSUs, just in case I have a need to move it to more sensitive equipment. I don't know whether the monitors would mind either way but I've decided I don't need to protect them - it's a brown-out so it's only for a few seconds.
I have worked out that for downstairs, where the router sits, I actually need DC only... that being:
3x 12v (one being @3A, the others not especially significant)
1x 5V USB (no especially high current requirements)
I could probably do with something like a very small leisure battery and charger here, although a commercial solution would be neater.
Upstairs:
1x 5V/3A USB, although there is a UPS solution for the Raspberry Pi so I'll check that out.
I don't like the idea of stepped sinewave PSUs, just in case I have a need to move it to more sensitive equipment. I don't know whether the monitors would mind either way but I've decided I don't need to protect them - it's a brown-out so it's only for a few seconds.
Edited by Watchman on Saturday 11th April 09:24
OldGermanHeaps said:
leisure battery will give off explosive hydrogen while charging and corrosive vapour out the vent, I would stick to proper standby agm batteries.
True. I have a lithium battery charger amongst the boxes and boxes of "stuff" in my garage - actually I have three different types. Been rooting through the boxes today (day off, stuck at home, etc etc) and have uncovered so much potentially useful kit. I'm considering building something for downstairs and haven't decided what to do upstairs yet.
To close this thread, I have ordered a PiJuice "hat" for the Raspberry Pi (on back order), and a Pico UPS board which allows me to add a very small sealed lead acid battery I already have and a 10A 12V power supply I also already have.
Should keep me working through the times of flickering supply.
Should keep me working through the times of flickering supply.
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