How does WhatsApp generate income?

[geek84]

Hi Folks

I hope you're all well and keeping safe.

Can someone kindly explain in simple terms as how WhatsApp generates income?

Thank You

[NDA]

I am guessing - but guessing based on a lifetime in the media business....

WhatsApp is owned by Facebook, so I imagine the dovetailing of the two data sets makes the Facebook audience data more valuable... location data particularly, helps maintain the Cost Per Thousand (CPM) that Facebook charges advertisers.

[i4got]

Are you familiar with the saying "If you're not paying for the product, you are the product".

[Voldemort]

They listen to your calls which enables them to serve you targeted advertising. This advertising could be on any platform...

[i4got]

Voldemort said:

They listen to your calls which enables them to serve you targeted advertising. This advertising could be on any platform...

Try it out. Pick something you've never seen advertised on your social media . eg Camera. Send a whatsapp message to someone saying I'm thinking about buying a new camera - any recommendations.

Keep an eye on your adverts for the next week or so.

[marky1]

i4got said:

Try it out. Pick something you've never seen advertised on your social media . eg Camera. Send a whatsapp message to someone saying I'm thinking about buying a new camera - any recommendations.

Keep an eye on your adverts for the next week or so.

This. They parse your messages and then target advertise to you via Facebook. Have you not wondered why you keep seeing ads for gay transvestite escorts. 😃😃😃😃

Edited by marky1 on Sunday 19th April 17:25

[geek84]

Thanks Folks

Much appreciated

[fat80b]

marky1 said:

This. They parse your messages and then target advertise to you via Facebook

No they don’t.
Messages sent on WhatsApp are end to end encrypted and only the two devices at either end can see the contents of the message.

The WhatsApp servers cannot read the messages.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/android/28030015/

[marky1]

Granted they say they are encrypted. But I think most of the world is wondering how something they mention on WhatsApp becomes an advert on Facebook. I’m certainly wondering. I still think they are parsing messages. When they say no one else sees them do you not think they mean humans?

[Turn7]

Voldemort said:

They listen to your calls which enables them to serve you targeted advertising. This advertising could be on any platform...

No ads on Iphone FB app for me and zero on FB on PC as thats locked down....

[ReallyReallyGood]

They collect the metadata - that is to say the data about the data - of your chats; who, when, where, but not what (end-to-end encryption as above). Even this metadata can be very valuable. They can also tie this information to any Facebook accounts you might also have.

[marky1]

Fair enough. I stand corrected. So how does one explain that a conversation about x has a targeted advert on Facebook the next day? I notice it frequently. I don’t use Facebook messenger and these are things I have not done a search on from any device? Myself and many of my friends are convinced it’s from WhatsApp.

[Funk]

fat80b said:

marky1 said:

This. They parse your messages and then target advertise to you via Facebook

No they don’t.
Messages sent on WhatsApp are end to end encrypted and only the two devices at either end can see the contents of the message.

The WhatsApp servers cannot read the messages.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/android/28030015/

Is the correct answer.

Re. monetisation there was talk of them allowing companies to market to you directly via WhatsApp - however, the reality is that as soon as they start to push ads through it, people will abandon it. I would imagine that given the behind-the-scenes data points they can join up it's still pretty useful in its own right; people like me who refuse to use Facebook or Instagram but were early adopters of WhatsApp for example. They will know who I know and all the other info via acquisition. If everyone I know would ditch WhatsApp I would move lock-stock to Signal in a heartbeat. The reality is that I can't really leave it until it falls out of favour with the masses as it's such a ubiquitous tool.

I hate that even though I don't want anything Facebook related or want them having my data they've just acquired it anyway.

[marky1]

But they don’t know who you are right? Because you don’t use Facebook?

[The Moose]

fat80b said:

No they don’t.
Messages sent on WhatsApp are end to end encrypted and only the two devices at either end can see the contents of the message.

The WhatsApp servers cannot read the messages.

https://faq.whatsapp.com/en/android/28030015/

While I’m sure the messages really are end to end encrypted, I’ve always wondered what’s to stop either device parsing the content of the messages to feedback the info to Facebook for the advertising?

[Funk]

marky1 said:

But they don’t know who you are right? Because you don’t use Facebook?

Pretty much everyone on the planet has a 'shadow profile' at Facebook whether they want it or not. Others who've saved my details to their Contacts and then allowed Facebook to access that have shared my data with them so Facebook know who I am, my phone number, possibly address and email details etc. They can then cross-link that with my WhatsApp profile (which is obviously linked to my phone number) and anything else they want to try and glean from my phone including location, access to pics, mic, call history etc. They can then cross-reference that with everyone else who I know etc etc etc.

They also build profiles of non-users from sites - you know when a site has a Facebook 'Like' icon etc? They can fingerprint the device visiting the page and note that it was one that wasn't logged in to Facebook (through cookie-tracking) when the device visited. That information about what you don't do and that you aren't a 'customer' is as useful to them as the information about those who are etc. This is just the tip of the data-mining iceberg really...

This sort of secretive tracking and the use of things like cookies and other similar tech passing data to third parties (ie. a news site passing your information to Facebook without your consent) is the whole reason for the GDPR/tracking consent stuff from a few years ago. The biggest issue is that most people a) have no idea what cookies really are, b) how they're used and c) don't really care (because of a) and b)!).

What's quite scary is how easily a highly-detailed profile can be put together about you without your consent including things like location, income, psychological profile, financial status, education history, political leanings and medical information; Facebook aren't alone - there are huge organisations out there whom you've never heard of with unbelievable amounts of data about you and it's all being sold to the highest bidders. Many will say the old 'nothing to hide' bks or 'tin foil hattery' stuff but I think we should have a right to start with privacy as a default. I use myriad anti-tracking systems to retain as much of my privacy as possible and to only divulge what I want to (as far as I reasonably can).

Edited by Funk on Sunday 19th April 19:43

[768]

The Moose said:

While I’m sure the messages really are end to end encrypted, I’ve always wondered what’s to stop either device parsing the content of the messages to feedback the info to Facebook for the advertising?

Technically, not much. But there's enough eyes watching I'm pretty sure it'd be picked up on quickly. They'd have to encrypt the message a second time probably and suddenly you've got twice as much data to send, one blob of which can't be decrypted by the other device.

[marky1]

Really informative thanks. When you look at cambridge analytical and what was going on there I just find it hard to take the WhatsApp statement about encryption at face value. There is (in my view) something going on either listening or via parsing because I’ll have a chat about a subject one day on WhatsApp and the next day I’m seeing Facebook adverts in the same subject. I know they are good but I presume they haven’t figured out how to read my mind yet!! A lot of people seem to report the same issue. I find it very strange. No doubt there is a scandal in the waiting about this. I’m as far fetched from a conspiracy theorist as can be but something doesn’t seem right.

[anonymous-user]

marky1 said:

Granted they say they are encrypted. But I think most of the world is wondering how something they mention on WhatsApp becomes an advert on Facebook. I’m certainly wondering. I still think they are parsing messages. When they say no one else sees them do you not think they mean humans?

This 100% happens. Anything I mention in whatsapp appears as ads in fb, same day. For example, in one WA group someone mentioned a boot buddy group buy, I said I would be up for that. Minutes later boot buddy ads appear in my fb feed. I had no idea what a boot buddy was beforehand the WA conversation and had never searched etc for it. Somewhere deep in the WA T&Cs there will be a clause allowing reading of messages to personalise advertising content, or something to that effect.

[Funk]

One of the founders of WhatsApp who went to Facebook in the acquisition left early forfeiting $850m in shares as he was so disgusted and disillusioned with how Facebook were treating WhatsApp users.

Brian Acton: https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2018/09/26...

Jan Koum, the then-CEO also left: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/30/17304792/whatsa...

And of all people, they'd be the ones to know exactly what was going on.