Engineering Manager
Discussion
So in the midst of the CV situation I have received word that my manager will be moving on to a strategic job with our parent company.
This will leave an Engineering Managers position that will have to be filled. The role manages approx 12 Designers/Engineers and works alongside the other department managers to set out the company direction and plan workload.
I’m probably one of maybe four Engineers that would be interested in taking it on. As much as I enjoy technical engineering, management is something I have always had an interest in, I just didn’t expect any opportunities to come this early in my career.
I am probably down on years of experience (6 vs 10) but probably would be the most ‘qualified’ compared to the others so could be at a disadvantage. I gained experience in other industries prior to joining this company that I feel is advantageous and I have been heavily involved in training, driving the direction of the Engineering team and developing operating procedures in the time I’ve been here.
So just some general questions for anyone that currently works in Management or has transitioned from a technical role into one - how did you find the transition? Did you continue in Management for the rest of your career? Did you regret it?
I’ve read some people describe Engineering Management as less of a promotion and more of a role change. Rather than being one of the players on the team, you’re the coach.
It’s far from a sure thing but it has definitely got me thinking about it...
This will leave an Engineering Managers position that will have to be filled. The role manages approx 12 Designers/Engineers and works alongside the other department managers to set out the company direction and plan workload.
I’m probably one of maybe four Engineers that would be interested in taking it on. As much as I enjoy technical engineering, management is something I have always had an interest in, I just didn’t expect any opportunities to come this early in my career.
I am probably down on years of experience (6 vs 10) but probably would be the most ‘qualified’ compared to the others so could be at a disadvantage. I gained experience in other industries prior to joining this company that I feel is advantageous and I have been heavily involved in training, driving the direction of the Engineering team and developing operating procedures in the time I’ve been here.
So just some general questions for anyone that currently works in Management or has transitioned from a technical role into one - how did you find the transition? Did you continue in Management for the rest of your career? Did you regret it?
I’ve read some people describe Engineering Management as less of a promotion and more of a role change. Rather than being one of the players on the team, you’re the coach.
It’s far from a sure thing but it has definitely got me thinking about it...
With experience you'll know how to get the best out of people, you'll have realistic expectations and the guys will respect that..... However in 22 years i've never seen anyone in a skilled role work their way up to management and stay there, top brass wants people who take their side and talk the talk.
I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 20th April 13:58
lyonspride said:
However in 22 years i've never seen anyone in a skilled role work their way up to management and stay there, top brass wants people who take their side and talk the talk.
I wonder if this is viewed negatively on the outside? I have come across a few very good Engineers who have either taken on a manager position as an interim or (involuntarily) reverted back to Engineer after a short stint in management.Either way they have a short period (less than a year) of management on their CV. Is this seen as an unsuccessful endeavour or additional/good experience?
cdon said:
I wonder if this is viewed negatively on the outside? I have come across a few very good Engineers who have either taken on a manager position as an interim or (involuntarily) reverted back to Engineer after a short stint in management.
Either way they have a short period (less than a year) of management on their CV. Is this seen as an unsuccessful endeavour or additional/good experience?
I just wanted to bump this on the chance that anyone had an opinion or comment on in this point above.Either way they have a short period (less than a year) of management on their CV. Is this seen as an unsuccessful endeavour or additional/good experience?
The role discussed in the original post has just been advertised internally and requirements wise I would fit the profile.
The successful candidate would take on the role of my current boss but effectively work alongside them in their new role and other managers reporting to the directors.
Edited by cdon on Friday 8th May 13:49
lyonspride said:
With experience you'll know how to get the best out of people, you'll have realistic expectations and the guys will respect that..... However in 22 years i've never seen anyone in a skilled role work their way up to management and stay there, top brass wants people who take their side and talk the talk.
I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
Yes, quite, if you have pride in what you do, engineering wise, you will very soon be being asked to do things you know are not right. The accountants and the bosses think they are right all the time, but they generally have no experience of the detail, and how things actually work. All that matters is driving down costs and you will be the one to deliver it. If you question their methods, even if you are clearly right, it will not end well. I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 20th April 13:58
There is now an odd system of management in this country where you are employed because you have great experience, maybe over decades, on a particular speciality, but when the bosses want to do something you categorically know is wrong (based on the very experience they hired you for) and you point it out, you are seen as someone who is a troublemaker, rather than thanking you for saving them from potential disaster.
Basically, if you are happy to be a ‘yes’ man, irrespective of what you actually believe, then you will do ok. Some people are comfortable with that, some are not.
I’m sure there are some places that are actually prepared to listen to, and trust their staff but it’s more and more rare these days. That’s why I prefer to be a contractor, so I don’t have to buy into, and dish out endless company nonsense if I end up on a project with a particularly bad attitude to their staff.
Speaking from experience....
You need to work out whether you'd actually be a good manager because in a technocratic organisation the best at getting the best out of people are not always promoted to that role.
Put simply... Good engineers seldom make good people managers. Engineering firms seldom recognise this and promote on eng skills rather than people skills.
Google spent millions on this problem because they had massive churn brought about by brilliant engineers promoted to management roles they were terrible at.
You need to honestly ask yourself...
Whether you enjoy the thrill of the engineering challenge, or helping get the best out of your colleagues most.
Whether you get a bigger kick out of personal praise or a successful team result.
Whether you view the bright young things in your team as threats to your career or assets that make your job easier... This being VERY important.
I've always been told that I'm an excellent manager# because my priorities have always been to the team and developing the people within. This may seem counter to meeting the corporate needs but it isn't.
Happy team = motivated team.
motivated team = highly effective team. This generally delivers outstanding results. But you need ty earn trust top down / bottom up to work like this and it requires a lot of effort (totally worth it) to get there.
However, it can be s
t role because you get moaned at top down and bottom up so you end up navigating a tight rope of politics and brokering conflicting views and positions.
Also, to manage well (develop your staff well... Make them the best versions of them) is bloody hard work and takes you away from the fun bits of engineering... The reason most of us studied it. Very few orgs recognise this and seldom give you enough time to do it right.
Don't be the ahole chasing the money who sees management success as personal. You won't make a good manager. The hard nosed authoritarian is only ever effective for a short space of time. Sustainable and effective management is as I describe above.
You need to work out whether you'd actually be a good manager because in a technocratic organisation the best at getting the best out of people are not always promoted to that role.
Put simply... Good engineers seldom make good people managers. Engineering firms seldom recognise this and promote on eng skills rather than people skills.
Google spent millions on this problem because they had massive churn brought about by brilliant engineers promoted to management roles they were terrible at.
You need to honestly ask yourself...
Whether you enjoy the thrill of the engineering challenge, or helping get the best out of your colleagues most.
Whether you get a bigger kick out of personal praise or a successful team result.
Whether you view the bright young things in your team as threats to your career or assets that make your job easier... This being VERY important.
I've always been told that I'm an excellent manager# because my priorities have always been to the team and developing the people within. This may seem counter to meeting the corporate needs but it isn't.
Happy team = motivated team.
motivated team = highly effective team. This generally delivers outstanding results. But you need ty earn trust top down / bottom up to work like this and it requires a lot of effort (totally worth it) to get there.
However, it can be s
t role because you get moaned at top down and bottom up so you end up navigating a tight rope of politics and brokering conflicting views and positions. Also, to manage well (develop your staff well... Make them the best versions of them) is bloody hard work and takes you away from the fun bits of engineering... The reason most of us studied it. Very few orgs recognise this and seldom give you enough time to do it right.
Don't be the a
hole chasing the money who sees management success as personal. You won't make a good manager. The hard nosed authoritarian is only ever effective for a short space of time. Sustainable and effective management is as I describe above. - despite that I tend to jump ship not long after being put in that position. To do it well is hard and leaves little time to grt involved with the fun bits of engineering and I'm a nerd at heart.
Edited by take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey on Monday 11th May 06:09
I’ve been in mechanical engineering 34 years, staff and contract and as an engineering manager - both staff and contract.
What’s been said above is absolutely correct.
Just my 2p worth
As a manager , you are expected to hand down some really bonkers policy decision making that come from “higher” beings that, as stated above, simply aren’t going to work. This makes me sit there and grate my teeth; it has left me feeling almost unwell at times in the past.
Motivating people who don’t want to be motivated is extremely hard work and is high on my list of truly futile activities.
Inheriting a team that someone else has created is an interesting one, as so many create teams in their own eyes, so they could well be from the same 2 or 3 universities, with the same degree, the same type of prior experience, and then the company wonders why are they are doing the same (possibly wrong) thing over and over again.
You are the st filter, you have to filter the stuff out what comes from above, and pass it on to the team below, and filter out what comes from the team below and pass it onto those above. It pays to get good at this, as this will be most of your life from here on in.
A lot depends upon the size of the team you are managing, 4 direct reports, (done that) you can actually get some engineering done of your own. At 11, your day is full of nonsense and plate spinning. Any more than that (14 people- done that) and your day is chaos. An ex-boss of mine always used to divide teams up into 5’s with 1 appointed senior engineer and 4 engineers/designers. That way, he could manage an enormous team, in his case 35+, as there was no way he was going to manage a quick one-on-one chat to each and every one of us, every single week. He told me that this was so important, as he wanted to know for himself what everybody was up to. He managed to speak to all of us once every 3 weeks. He was strongly of the opinion that only geniuses could manage 11 direct reports, so I asked him why. His reply is still with me “if Jesus Christ couldn’t manage 12 direct reports, what fking chance have I got?”
I carried this over onto a large team of mine in the past, and had the mickey taken out of me by the team. It was only after I had left, that they realised that maybe bucksmanuk supported them a lot more than I was then given credit for at the time.
As above, developing staff is really hard work as some of them may have a very definite ideas as to what direction they are going in, and the company may have another. I have experience of this….
You will now be party to discussions and meetings that you weren’t previously, and it’s highly likely that those who you thought weren’t that competent really aren’t, and in some organisations it’s just egos that push that these things through. I’ve heard a sales director sit there and lie through his teeth, also knowing that I (engineering manager) and the technical director (the real expert in the place) knew he was lying through his teeth to the MD. £M decision making was being made on this guy’s opinion. Both of us were so stunned at what we heard, neither of us could speak… Thank God I was only a contract engineering manager there and my allotted time was coming to an end. The engineering team has since shrunk from 15 to 6; c/o bonkers policy making this clown was involved in and now they are losing customers because they don’t have the technical support any more.
Keep asking away though, this decision could make or break you.
What’s been said above is absolutely correct.
Just my 2p worth
As a manager , you are expected to hand down some really bonkers policy decision making that come from “higher” beings that, as stated above, simply aren’t going to work. This makes me sit there and grate my teeth; it has left me feeling almost unwell at times in the past.
Motivating people who don’t want to be motivated is extremely hard work and is high on my list of truly futile activities.
Inheriting a team that someone else has created is an interesting one, as so many create teams in their own eyes, so they could well be from the same 2 or 3 universities, with the same degree, the same type of prior experience, and then the company wonders why are they are doing the same (possibly wrong) thing over and over again.
You are the s
t filter, you have to filter the stuff out what comes from above, and pass it on to the team below, and filter out what comes from the team below and pass it onto those above. It pays to get good at this, as this will be most of your life from here on in. A lot depends upon the size of the team you are managing, 4 direct reports, (done that) you can actually get some engineering done of your own. At 11, your day is full of nonsense and plate spinning. Any more than that (14 people- done that) and your day is chaos. An ex-boss of mine always used to divide teams up into 5’s with 1 appointed senior engineer and 4 engineers/designers. That way, he could manage an enormous team, in his case 35+, as there was no way he was going to manage a quick one-on-one chat to each and every one of us, every single week. He told me that this was so important, as he wanted to know for himself what everybody was up to. He managed to speak to all of us once every 3 weeks. He was strongly of the opinion that only geniuses could manage 11 direct reports, so I asked him why. His reply is still with me “if Jesus Christ couldn’t manage 12 direct reports, what f
king chance have I got?” I carried this over onto a large team of mine in the past, and had the mickey taken out of me by the team. It was only after I had left, that they realised that maybe bucksmanuk supported them a lot more than I was then given credit for at the time.
As above, developing staff is really hard work as some of them may have a very definite ideas as to what direction they are going in, and the company may have another. I have experience of this….
You will now be party to discussions and meetings that you weren’t previously, and it’s highly likely that those who you thought weren’t that competent really aren’t, and in some organisations it’s just egos that push that these things through. I’ve heard a sales director sit there and lie through his teeth, also knowing that I (engineering manager) and the technical director (the real expert in the place) knew he was lying through his teeth to the MD. £M decision making was being made on this guy’s opinion. Both of us were so stunned at what we heard, neither of us could speak… Thank God I was only a contract engineering manager there and my allotted time was coming to an end. The engineering team has since shrunk from 15 to 6; c/o bonkers policy making this clown was involved in and now they are losing customers because they don’t have the technical support any more.
Keep asking away though, this decision could make or break you.
ITP said:
lyonspride said:
With experience you'll know how to get the best out of people, you'll have realistic expectations and the guys will respect that..... However in 22 years i've never seen anyone in a skilled role work their way up to management and stay there, top brass wants people who take their side and talk the talk.
I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
Yes, quite, if you have pride in what you do, engineering wise, you will very soon be being asked to do things you know are not right. The accountants and the bosses think they are right all the time, but they generally have no experience of the detail, and how things actually work. All that matters is driving down costs and you will be the one to deliver it. If you question their methods, even if you are clearly right, it will not end well. I managed an electronics test department for a time, I had the full respect of my guys, even the apprentices worked their socks off, I knew their jobs inside out and I knew what to expect from them, most importantly the job was done and the work went out on schedule................ BUT my manager was always on my back for not leaning on them more, for not being stricter with them. It's like we have this management culture in the UK, where we think that beating people with a stick is the only way to get them to do a good job.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 20th April 13:58
There is now an odd system of management in this country where you are employed because you have great experience, maybe over decades, on a particular speciality, but when the bosses want to do something you categorically know is wrong (based on the very experience they hired you for) and you point it out, you are seen as someone who is a troublemaker, rather than thanking you for saving them from potential disaster.
Basically, if you are happy to be a ‘yes’ man, irrespective of what you actually believe, then you will do ok. Some people are comfortable with that, some are not.
I’m sure there are some places that are actually prepared to listen to, and trust their staff but it’s more and more rare these days. That’s why I prefer to be a contractor, so I don’t have to buy into, and dish out endless company nonsense if I end up on a project with a particularly bad attitude to their staff.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 11th May 14:20
Thanks for the advice! There’s nearly too much to reply to but an incredible amount of good feedback which is very appreciated.
My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
cdon said:
Thanks for the advice! There’s nearly too much to reply to but an incredible amount of good feedback which is very appreciated.
My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.If you apply and don't get it, then you'll have experience of the application process and hopefully some feedback. It sounds like you have a pretty good chance and you certainly sound enthusiastic about the opportunity.My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
Good luck!
cdon said:
Thanks for the advice! There’s nearly too much to reply to but an incredible amount of good feedback which is very appreciated.
My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
Put your CV in, you can always turn it down even if you get offered it!My CV is typed and sitting ready to go and the deadline for applications is tomorrow. If I’m being honest i’m still on the fence on what to do/if it taking this step would be the right move - at the same time I don’t think I will have the opportunity to apply internally for this sort of role again anytime soon.
I think moving into an external Management role in the future could be a different task altogether.
It at least gives you the application practice, and an opportunity to grill your seniors about what you would / wouldn't be doing
I regret moving from a role where i led a small team (3-5 as a senior engineer) to a better paid purely engineering position but without a team, I'm currently job hunting for engineering manager / team leader roles.
Management is easy - you just need to keep the 60% of staff who hate you away from the 40% who are undecided. 
I've been a Manager for nearly 20 years now. I moved into management mainly because it was more money, more interesting work, but also more control of what I did and when I did it. It can be hard managing people that you've previously worked alongside and it's hard managing people that you know are lazy and do the bare minimum. It's always easier/better if you can recruit your own team.
I've been a Manager for nearly 20 years now. I moved into management mainly because it was more money, more interesting work, but also more control of what I did and when I did it. It can be hard managing people that you've previously worked alongside and it's hard managing people that you know are lazy and do the bare minimum. It's always easier/better if you can recruit your own team.
Countdown said:
Management is easy - you just need to keep the 60% of staff who hate you away from the 40% who are undecided.
I've been a Manager for nearly 20 years now. I moved into management mainly because it was more money, more interesting work, but also more control of what I did and when I did it. It can be hard managing people that you've previously worked alongside and it's hard managing people that you know are lazy and do the bare minimum. It's always easier/better if you can recruit your own team.
Or as I like to call them, people who've had the drive beaten out of them by former management.I've been a Manager for nearly 20 years now. I moved into management mainly because it was more money, more interesting work, but also more control of what I did and when I did it. It can be hard managing people that you've previously worked alongside and it's hard managing people that you know are lazy and do the bare minimum. It's always easier/better if you can recruit your own team.
When I started a role as manufacturing engineer, I was also tasked with managing a small team of production staff (7 people), i'd been warned about two young guys being lazy etc, all I did was give them more control over their work and something to be individually responsible for, their productivity went through the roof. At the end of the day, my approach is that as long as the work gets done each day/week/month, customers are happy and nobody is getting hurt, I don't care about the banter, the mobile phones, stopping to get a drink, being 2 minutes over at lunch, etc etc etc.
I think a lot of managers have no idea how to get the best out of apprentices and younger staff, beating them with a stick just doesn't work, oppression doesn't work, and many just end up blaming the employee instead of their own inability to manage properly.
lyonspride said:
Or as I like to call them, people who've had the drive beaten out of them by former management.
When I started a role as manufacturing engineer, I was also tasked with managing a small team of production staff (7 people), i'd been warned about two young guys being lazy etc, all I did was give them more control over their work and something to be individually responsible for, their productivity went through the roof. At the end of the day, my approach is that as long as the work gets done each day/week/month, customers are happy and nobody is getting hurt, I don't care about the banter, the mobile phones, stopping to get a drink, being 2 minutes over at lunch, etc etc etc.
I think a lot of managers have no idea how to get the best out of apprentices and younger staff, beating them with a stick just doesn't work, oppression doesn't work, and many just end up blaming the employee instead of their own inability to manage properly.
You may well be right. However there's a few that I can think of where the people most annoyed with these individuals were their own colleagues who were sick of them skiving and not pulling their weight. They were making the whole team look bad to others.When I started a role as manufacturing engineer, I was also tasked with managing a small team of production staff (7 people), i'd been warned about two young guys being lazy etc, all I did was give them more control over their work and something to be individually responsible for, their productivity went through the roof. At the end of the day, my approach is that as long as the work gets done each day/week/month, customers are happy and nobody is getting hurt, I don't care about the banter, the mobile phones, stopping to get a drink, being 2 minutes over at lunch, etc etc etc.
I think a lot of managers have no idea how to get the best out of apprentices and younger staff, beating them with a stick just doesn't work, oppression doesn't work, and many just end up blaming the employee instead of their own inability to manage properly.
Countdown said:
You may well be right. However there's a few that I can think of where the people most annoyed with these individuals were their own colleagues who were sick of them skiving and not pulling their weight. They were making the whole team look bad to others.
Well there's another pet hate of mine, colleagues (usually the older gen) whining about other colleagues (usually under 25's). It's usually driven by jealously and by them trying to exert their age given authority, so they start making up stuff like "always on their phone", or "always talking", or timekeeping issues, generally stuff which they themselves are guilty of as well, but they stop doing that themselves so that they appear to have a basis for complaint, the eagle eyed can spot it a mile away, but the young/naive have never seen this sort of crap before and unfortunately this can damage someone who had a lot of potential.Of course the problem is they complain to the boss and weeks can go by without incident, but the very first time the boss sees someone pick up their phone (for example), confirmation bias kicks in and every complaint is suddenly seen as valid. This how organisations end up with oppressive rules over their staff, because someone made an issue out of a non issue, confirmation bias kicked it and then everyone has to suffer.
The reason i'm aware of this is because It happened to me in my first job, I had it for about 3 years, I didn't know what to do about it, I went from being happy and hard working, to being utterly miserable, like everyone was picking on me and that of course took it's toll on my work, which only gave them more sh*t to throw at me. I was fortunate enough to have someone to tell me what was going on and tell me how to put it straight, and now I try to be that person for younger staff members who I see going through the mill.
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