Furlough Fraud
Discussion
My Partner is the Finance Director of a small business, the "finance director " is pretty much just a title, amongst her many duties she is the Accounts manager and operates the payroll. The business employs 40 plus people and with a few exceptions they have all been furloughed, this includes my partner.Since the virus arrived she has worked a full day every day, producing invoices, paying suppliers, reconciling receipts and of course the payroll. I am sure there will be other companies viewing furlough as free money. My question is , if this is discovered what are the implications for her in respect of any prosecutions and her standing as a director? She is in a very difficult position as refusing to do as told would create a very difficult working relationship with the two owner directors. They have of course also furloughed themselves and continue to call her and e mail her with requests for aged debtors etc. Oh and another free money scheme, they have employed I guess an unemployed friend, they have never worked a day and immediately went sick and are of course on SSP, paid for by the state. It all seems so easy for HMRC to uncover , e mail trails, IP addresses of submissions etc.
Shelsley F2
Shelsley F2
To be honest I hope they do get caught, have to pay the money back and get a massive fine. But I suspect the vast majority will get away with it.
I own a small 11 person business and have furloughed 5. All have been told they cannot do any work for us and all they can do is training, of which there is very little. I would love them to continue working and help us get ready for when we get through this but it's against the rules.
My fear as a Director who has asked staff to work when furloughed would be what happens if I try to get rid of a member of staff and they go to HMRC. I hope there will be lots of whistle blowers after this.
I own a small 11 person business and have furloughed 5. All have been told they cannot do any work for us and all they can do is training, of which there is very little. I would love them to continue working and help us get ready for when we get through this but it's against the rules.
My fear as a Director who has asked staff to work when furloughed would be what happens if I try to get rid of a member of staff and they go to HMRC. I hope there will be lots of whistle blowers after this.
Friends wife works for HMRC and is WFH. They are already investigating frauds of this nature. Her workload changed to this when furlough was announced. Whilst they are are furloughing the 40 staff why not just keep your wife on full time and salaried therefore beyond reproach.......other than the other fraud.
Slightly off topic but still fairly relevant.
Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
airsafari87 said:
Slightly off topic but still fairly relevant.
Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
If they were not working then I'd guess that's OK.Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
airsafari87 said:
Slightly off topic but still fairly relevant.
Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
If they were not working then I'd guess that's OK.Say a company was struggling pre CV outbreak, had almost no work on its books and employees having nothing whatsoever to do. And by their own admission were very close to going bust.
But then CV comes along and all employees are immediately put on Furlough despite having the capability to work from home.
Will there by likely to be any comeback on them once this is all over?
If Company A were failing, but still officially trading. You can furlough everyone from Company A. BUT you may not do any work for Company A whilst furloughed.
If you have a second job at Company B you can be furloughed from A (receive the 80% pay from the Gov for it) and still work for B.
I expect HMRC to take a random selection of companies and investigate in the manner a proctologist will. I suspect there will be jail terms for those directors lying and claiming Furlough in such a manner. I think you know what would happen with a director who is guilty of fraud....
ETA I should note for completeness that a Company Director may continue to work on matters which are legally required however not on profit related tasks or revenue generating...
ETA I should note for completeness that a Company Director may continue to work on matters which are legally required however not on profit related tasks or revenue generating...
Edited by Jasandjules on Wednesday 22 April 18:13
Shelsleyf2 said:
My Partner is the Finance Director of a small business, the "finance director " is pretty much just a title, amongst her many duties she is the Accounts manager and operates the payroll. The business employs 40 plus people and with a few exceptions they have all been furloughed, this includes my partner.Since the virus arrived she has worked a full day every day, producing invoices, paying suppliers, reconciling receipts and of course the payroll. I am sure there will be other companies viewing furlough as free money. My question is , if this is discovered what are the implications for her in respect of any prosecutions and her standing as a director? She is in a very difficult position as refusing to do as told would create a very difficult working relationship with the two owner directors. They have of course also furloughed themselves and continue to call her and e mail her with requests for aged debtors etc. Oh and another free money scheme, they have employed I guess an unemployed friend, they have never worked a day and immediately went sick and are of course on SSP, paid for by the state. It all seems so easy for HMRC to uncover , e mail trails, IP addresses of submissions etc.
Shelsley F2
Furlough = do no work so she should do no work. If they want her to work then (a) there must be work available (b) she shouldn't be furloughed.Shelsley F2
Just for context I am a powerfully built company director and I haven't furloughed myself so we are not all "at it".
TX.
Hi, to answer a couple of questions, they are topping up, she is a director though she has never been to any meeting but as company secretary is signing documents. Seems chances if the fraud being uncovered are probably very very slight. Though if I were in HMRC investigations I would investigate any company that claimed furlough monies and is in profit next year.
Thanks all
Thanks all
Shelsleyf2 said:
Hi, to answer a couple of questions, they are topping up, she is a director though she has never been to any meeting but as company secretary is signing documents. Seems chances if the fraud being uncovered are probably very very slight. Though if I were in HMRC investigations I would investigate any company that claimed furlough monies and is in profit next year.
Thanks all
That part might play on my mind if I were her in this situation.Thanks all
Has she signed or submitted anything related to the furlough process?
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