Bike formula ford, Blackbird engined
Discussion
As an ex biker ( been through plenty, most recent before cutting my losses was Triumphs, 595, 955 etc) I've now a formula ford type of project but converted to use a Blackbird engine and its a rough project, and never used yet.
My biggest concern at the moment is not having a stable running engine, would be nice if it just started.
having bought this smack bang middle ( well before) the Covid thing doesn't help.
Its so far been only ever at the edge of starting it seems.....
Never done much with carbs but stripped down for clean and refitted those and it was closer to stable starting ( but still pretty rough), couldnt see anything particularly wrong, tried experimenting with different setups of no of turns on each carb
Also
- checked and cleaned plugs,
- some electric checks on coil packs and leads, leads seem to test on resistance ok, not 100% sure on coils, between + and - is ok but unsure elsewhere what Im doing I think, but couldnt get anything between the + and everything else ( seems like a wasted spark sort of setup?)
and checked getting voltage to the coils
- drained and refilled tank with some fresh fuel
- added a fuel filter, it was missing
- checked fuel pressure, then even replaced with bike specific generic pump too, pressure seems ok
In one sense I tapped into a fortunate opportunity -
AB performance were sellng off blackbird engine bits which I gladly took advantage of may help in long run, almost a full engine of spares or more, for £200 so maybe that will help. No spare carbs tho
Im consigned to feeling like I just have to wait this out and get a bike doc ........ maybe even an engine tear down or compression test or something ?
I've not had any experience in anything this bad in terms of starting.
I didnt spend a huge amount but get the feeling it doesn't warrant throwing huge money at as has limited use.
Im in Northants. Any recommendations on good mobile docs I might be able to tap into in the next X months that this covid s
t has come and goneI used ti have a Fireblade-engined Westfield a while back - not that that's directly related to your car. But I was on a lot of bike engined car forums at the time and picked up that Blackbird motors were the weakest you could put in a car in terms of oiling a g-forces. Fireblades just needed a sump baffle plate (which made them popular choices); Hayabusas and ZZRs too, but I was reading folks were rigging up all sorts of things like accusumps to keep oil pressure in Blackbirds with big g-forces. I presume you've got the oiling sorted out...just sayin'
Cheers mates
Well the oil side, I should hope so, it was modified already on sump, not only that but the parts I got from AB also includes a sump modification of some kind
So yeah thats covered in the long run for running it stakes, its a punt and will see how it goes ( I paid 2 grand for the van diemen AND the engine fitted so I don't think I did too bad I think its worth that all day anyway, they seem pretty rare ).
Only issue is they have very limited use.
As to the other questions:
No airbox
No idea of timing it would need stripping down to check that.
its definitely turning and trying to start and definitely getting fuel into the carb bowls though less sure about the exact tuning of that, tried them on 1.5 - 2 turns in experimentation.
I can say it was momentarily running but seemed quite bad / more on the rough side
( almost running away just it was overfueling but since then I have changed the fuel pump for more of a std bike one)
Pumps definitely priming and fuel flowing.
Seems its veering towards misfiring/explosive if I keep pushing to start, too much fuel no doubt, perhaps not enough spark was my thoughts?
But I don't have a spark plug checker ( or compression tester)
The only I could observe It seems more likely to almost "catch" from cold without recent starts, in terms of eagerness with a tiny amount of open throttle, I found where the manual choke is but thats not really helping. So equally I'm not sure maybe its a mix problem.
Its not been close to even remotely starting as of recently, well I kind of gave up thinking actually it needs more attention in order just in case.
Maybe I need to just take a punt on some cheap spark coils similar to whats on already ?
I have a feeling its more spark, I did try and loosen a lead and plug out to view the spark jumping to something metal on top of the engine, but I couldn't see anything clearly so I do kind of suspect that.
Other than that I probably am going to need to pick on others experience sadly but certainly had a poke to try and improve it.
Maybe as a complete unknown perhaps it should be given a bit of an engine strip down ( and service ). though the plugs didn't look brand new but they didnt look minging and cleaned up reasonably well.
Well the oil side, I should hope so, it was modified already on sump, not only that but the parts I got from AB also includes a sump modification of some kind
So yeah thats covered in the long run for running it stakes, its a punt and will see how it goes ( I paid 2 grand for the van diemen AND the engine fitted so I don't think I did too bad I think its worth that all day anyway, they seem pretty rare ).
Only issue is they have very limited use.
As to the other questions:
No airbox
No idea of timing it would need stripping down to check that.
its definitely turning and trying to start and definitely getting fuel into the carb bowls though less sure about the exact tuning of that, tried them on 1.5 - 2 turns in experimentation.
I can say it was momentarily running but seemed quite bad / more on the rough side
( almost running away just it was overfueling but since then I have changed the fuel pump for more of a std bike one)
Pumps definitely priming and fuel flowing.
Seems its veering towards misfiring/explosive if I keep pushing to start, too much fuel no doubt, perhaps not enough spark was my thoughts?
But I don't have a spark plug checker ( or compression tester)
The only I could observe It seems more likely to almost "catch" from cold without recent starts, in terms of eagerness with a tiny amount of open throttle, I found where the manual choke is but thats not really helping. So equally I'm not sure maybe its a mix problem.
Its not been close to even remotely starting as of recently, well I kind of gave up thinking actually it needs more attention in order just in case.
Maybe I need to just take a punt on some cheap spark coils similar to whats on already ?
I have a feeling its more spark, I did try and loosen a lead and plug out to view the spark jumping to something metal on top of the engine, but I couldn't see anything clearly so I do kind of suspect that.
Other than that I probably am going to need to pick on others experience sadly but certainly had a poke to try and improve it.
Maybe as a complete unknown perhaps it should be given a bit of an engine strip down ( and service ). though the plugs didn't look brand new but they didnt look minging and cleaned up reasonably well.
Or if anyone can recommend a really good bike doctor around the Northants who can stretch to kitcar setups / knows Blackbird or modern Honda engines in and out - for after this whole lockdown thing is done is another suggestion I'm very grateful for.
Even if I can get it basically knowing the engine is running is ideal, there is lots of improvement in other areas ( needs rewire etc) but all in time
daytonavrs said:
No airbox
Im going to suggest that right there is your main issue.The carbs will be jetted for an airbox, so will be leaner than lean right now.
I built a Fury with a ZX9 motor, this was carb but I fitted a large sausage type airbox on them - no chance of decent running until I fitted a Dynojet kit.
I had a blackbird engine in a Caterham for a while, I’d also suggest the lack of an air box may be one culprit. Other points are that mine had a dry sump, as others have said if your planning on going to the track you’ll need one.
Be careful with gear changes, the gearbox, mainly 2nd from memory will round the dogs quickly too.
Be careful with gear changes, the gearbox, mainly 2nd from memory will round the dogs quickly too.
MartinB7 said:
I had a blackbird engine in a Caterham for a while, I’d also suggest the lack of an air box may be one culprit. Other points are that mine had a dry sump, as others have said if your planning on going to the track you’ll need one.
Be careful with gear changes, the gearbox, mainly 2nd from memory will round the dogs quickly too.
I'd echo both these points. The blackbird engine really does need a full dry-sump. Even baffled sumps are prone to bearing oil starvation.Be careful with gear changes, the gearbox, mainly 2nd from memory will round the dogs quickly too.
I'd also recommend a trick shifter or similar. They can be prone to false neutrals... I needed a gearbox rebuild on mine following a missed gear and a 'clonk'.
Such a fun car on track though... You'll have a blast.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
I'd also recommend a trick shifter or similar. They can be prone to false neutrals... I needed a gearbox rebuild on mine following a missed gear and a 'clonk'.
Such a fun car on track though... You'll have a blast.
Sounds like it needs a very careful map then, mind you pretty much all BEC's will be on borrowed time for gearboxes.Such a fun car on track though... You'll have a blast.
Sorry I should add as when you get these things they have had quite a bit of work, I mentioned it had some changes to the sump
It definitely had mentioned some kind of rejetting of the carbs already, whether good or bad in regard to my problem and the airbox I don't know without a better expert opinion.
Sadly even the ebay archives within 4 mths and cannot even all up the detail on that now which had some juicy detail on it !
Krikkit said:
Sounds like it needs a very careful map then, mind you pretty much all BEC's will be on borrowed time for gearboxes.
I think it's more a case of the gearbox in a bec gets massively punished so the dogs wear really quickly. You get a lot more backlash - two very sticky 205 width tyres. On the bike you lock the rear. In the car, it goes into the box. And you are WOT way more in BEC than you would be on the bike. Oil tends to be very sparkly when you change it
OP magnetic sump plug is a good idea. The sanguine view I eventually took before I got rid of mine was you've got a car that's 0-100 ~ 9 secs. Is perfectly usable on the road, yet with no changes will lap faster than a 911 cup car on slicks.
You can afford to junk an engine every couple of years when you can pick one up for a couple of k and swap it out in a day. Tyres alone on something that fast from a big manufacturer would cost that every few TDs.
OP if it does go bang, get a fire blade lump. They're cheaper and stronger and there isn't much in it on track. The extra torque from the bb is more use on the road.
Thinking about engine issues in general, there's a strong possibility that this is fuel-related rather than anything more serious (although not impossible). timing I would say is unlikely; how many of us have had to randomly re-time a modern bike engine? Could be coils/plugs but that's easily checked as above.
My two suggestions:
1. The easy one. I used to have a carbed GSXR track bike, which of course stood in the garage all winter. Come the spring and startup time, it ran like an utter dog and the only cure for that was to drain all the fuel out and put fresh. in, whereupon it spring back into life just like the pervious year.
2. The less easy one. As above, modern fuel is toss. If yours has been standing a long time (it IS carbs, I presume from the posts?) then you might need to strip them all out and get the ultrasonically cleaned.
I'd be surprised if it's not either of the above.
That said, my old Thunderace has been off the road since at least 2008, and last year I hooked up a spare battery and a temporary fuel tank and it fired up straight away, so there's hope for these old tanks!
My two suggestions:
1. The easy one. I used to have a carbed GSXR track bike, which of course stood in the garage all winter. Come the spring and startup time, it ran like an utter dog and the only cure for that was to drain all the fuel out and put fresh. in, whereupon it spring back into life just like the pervious year.
2. The less easy one. As above, modern fuel is toss. If yours has been standing a long time (it IS carbs, I presume from the posts?) then you might need to strip them all out and get the ultrasonically cleaned.
I'd be surprised if it's not either of the above.
That said, my old Thunderace has been off the road since at least 2008, and last year I hooked up a spare battery and a temporary fuel tank and it fired up straight away, so there's hope for these old tanks!
Thanks for the further ideas and I am thinking strongly on the last reply -
There may be some truth in regard to maybe it being "something regarding carbs" ? If you think about the following
I wasn't getting it started when I first got it either so was looking into cleaning the carbs which I did
After I put them back on was the closest time I got to valhalla moment was as a result of me removing, cleaning and drying carbs and putting back on and that was when I got a start out of it but didn't keep it running,
one thing ( that may be notable) about that time I had it runnig, is it seemed to be almost starting running away climbing revs like too much fuel I wasn't happy with and obviously tuning, probably syncing the carbs too. I didn't want to risk damage if it started to go into high revs on a cold engine so didn't prolong it running but did prove it running for a short while.
Again worth mentioning, its now got the self regulating pump so overloading the carbs should no longer really be an issue ? I did have a pressure guage in the stuff I got with the car, it was like ~2psi stable. Ive removed that now as it told me what I need.
There may be some truth in regard to maybe it being "something regarding carbs" ? If you think about the following
I wasn't getting it started when I first got it either so was looking into cleaning the carbs which I did
After I put them back on was the closest time I got to valhalla moment was as a result of me removing, cleaning and drying carbs and putting back on and that was when I got a start out of it but didn't keep it running,
one thing ( that may be notable) about that time I had it runnig, is it seemed to be almost starting running away climbing revs like too much fuel I wasn't happy with and obviously tuning, probably syncing the carbs too. I didn't want to risk damage if it started to go into high revs on a cold engine so didn't prolong it running but did prove it running for a short while.
Again worth mentioning, its now got the self regulating pump so overloading the carbs should no longer really be an issue ? I did have a pressure guage in the stuff I got with the car, it was like ~2psi stable. Ive removed that now as it told me what I need.
Krikkit said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
I'd also recommend a trick shifter or similar. They can be prone to false neutrals... I needed a gearbox rebuild on mine following a missed gear and a 'clonk'.
Such a fun car on track though... You'll have a blast.
Sounds like it needs a very careful map then, mind you pretty much all BEC's will be on borrowed time for gearboxes.Such a fun car on track though... You'll have a blast.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Krikkit said:
Sounds like it needs a very careful map then, mind you pretty much all BEC's will be on borrowed time for gearboxes.
I think it's more a case of the gearbox in a bec gets massively punished so the dogs wear really quickly. You get a lot more backlash - two very sticky 205 width tyres. On the bike you lock the rear. In the car, it goes into the box. And you are WOT way more in BEC than you would be on the bike...- Lots more good stuff*
A good map for torque management could help with wearing the dogs, not sure how many use them but perhaps a cush drive on the axle too to soften things up.
I'd love a formula ford (or any small single seater) with a bike engine.
Thanks for this suggestions - actually, well maybe I'm echoing this already in my reinterpretration of the existing project, or setting it back on track to what makes sense for its whole purpose for existance top me.
Acquired 13" OEM style Weller wheels to replace the larger non specific 15" alloy rims.
( 13" alloys for slicks would be even nicer)
Removing "large body" zip ford kit and acquiring bit by by as much of the original fibreglass body components as I can to make look closer to original Van Diemen.
That may help keeping the weight down in terms of wear and the driven wheels.
I mentioned I have almost complete set of engine parts as spares I think so its quite a few useful bits I have, the whole thing just needs plenty finishing including of course the engine/running ! Not as bad as making road legal tho, which I have no patterns of right now but might transition to a road legal BEC in future
Acquired 13" OEM style Weller wheels to replace the larger non specific 15" alloy rims.
( 13" alloys for slicks would be even nicer)
Removing "large body" zip ford kit and acquiring bit by by as much of the original fibreglass body components as I can to make look closer to original Van Diemen.
That may help keeping the weight down in terms of wear and the driven wheels.
I mentioned I have almost complete set of engine parts as spares I think so its quite a few useful bits I have, the whole thing just needs plenty finishing including of course the engine/running ! Not as bad as making road legal tho, which I have no patterns of right now but might transition to a road legal BEC in future
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