Discussion
Looks like I'll be selling my F40 when it returns from Italy after its resoration.( Fire at Bedford :( )
The F40 was very fast on the straights, but even after fitting new shocks, LM suspension bushes I was unable to keep up with the GT3rs's through the corners at Bedford on that ill fated day.
I've always had German cars and enjoyed the reliability, so now its time to return.
I can't buy a GT3 until I sell the F40 (wife!), not a financial problem, so I'm getting as much info as I can in the next 8 weeks to make sure I get the right car.
I track day about 6 times a year, and sometimes enter the odd hill climb or sprint so a GT3 or GTrs are my choices.
I'm unsure about the following.
1) The Porsche ceramic brakes, searches show them to be a financial liability, others do not??
2) Extra noise. Whats the dB on a standard exhaust, and if I fit an aftermarket system will it be too loud for track days. My nearest track is Goodwood, quiet days are only 98dB.
3) The 997 GT3, worth the wait?? Or is the current GT3 at the peak of development.
4) Will there be a 997 GT3rs??
5) From what I've also read its pretty difficult to obtain any extra power without spending at least £5k+.
What should I be looking for? Budget is about £80k.
Cheers,
James.
The F40 was very fast on the straights, but even after fitting new shocks, LM suspension bushes I was unable to keep up with the GT3rs's through the corners at Bedford on that ill fated day.
I've always had German cars and enjoyed the reliability, so now its time to return.
I can't buy a GT3 until I sell the F40 (wife!), not a financial problem, so I'm getting as much info as I can in the next 8 weeks to make sure I get the right car.
I track day about 6 times a year, and sometimes enter the odd hill climb or sprint so a GT3 or GTrs are my choices.
I'm unsure about the following.
1) The Porsche ceramic brakes, searches show them to be a financial liability, others do not??
2) Extra noise. Whats the dB on a standard exhaust, and if I fit an aftermarket system will it be too loud for track days. My nearest track is Goodwood, quiet days are only 98dB.
3) The 997 GT3, worth the wait?? Or is the current GT3 at the peak of development.
4) Will there be a 997 GT3rs??
5) From what I've also read its pretty difficult to obtain any extra power without spending at least £5k+.
What should I be looking for? Budget is about £80k.
Cheers,
James.
James
I am biased and I would say go for the RS. I was one of the GT3's there the day your car had it's Fire
It was very sad to see that.
As for your questions :-
1) Ceramics are fine if the car is for road use only, but for track work you are better of with steels. This is a cost issue only, there is nothing wrong with the performance of ceramics, it's just the replacement costs. A number of guys I know ahve taken the ceramics of and fitted the Brembo or Alcon steel discs.
2) A standard car will pass on a 105 day at Goodwood, they have been known to get on a 98 day but you need to be a little dishonest about the red line.
3) The 997GT3 is due in 07. It is rumoured to have a little more power but also a little more weight
4) Yes there will be a 997GT3RS but this will not be a limited model, it will be more like the current GT3 Club Sport.
5) The only reliable way of getting more power I would recommend is the Manthey route. I beleive they can get 420 BHP now through exhaust and ECU changes.
As I said for your budget you can either have an RS. Or buy a MK2 and have it Manthey'ed up. The RS is the better track car for sprinting etc etc....If you need any more advice please drop me a PM.
Cheers Sean
I am biased and I would say go for the RS. I was one of the GT3's there the day your car had it's Fire
It was very sad to see that. As for your questions :-
1) Ceramics are fine if the car is for road use only, but for track work you are better of with steels. This is a cost issue only, there is nothing wrong with the performance of ceramics, it's just the replacement costs. A number of guys I know ahve taken the ceramics of and fitted the Brembo or Alcon steel discs.
2) A standard car will pass on a 105 day at Goodwood, they have been known to get on a 98 day but you need to be a little dishonest about the red line.
3) The 997GT3 is due in 07. It is rumoured to have a little more power but also a little more weight
4) Yes there will be a 997GT3RS but this will not be a limited model, it will be more like the current GT3 Club Sport.
5) The only reliable way of getting more power I would recommend is the Manthey route. I beleive they can get 420 BHP now through exhaust and ECU changes.
As I said for your budget you can either have an RS. Or buy a MK2 and have it Manthey'ed up. The RS is the better track car for sprinting etc etc....If you need any more advice please drop me a PM.
Cheers Sean
seandudding said:
1) Ceramics are fine if the car is for road use only, but for track work you are better of with steels. This is a cost issue only, there is nothing wrong with the performance of ceramics, it's just the replacement costs. A number of guys I know ahve taken the ceramics of and fitted the Brembo or Alcon steel discs.
I would maybe slightly disagree on that.
I find the ceramics every bit as good at stopping the car (maybe slightly better on big stops) - but you lose feel with the ceramics and in that case the iron are better (and the feel is so important). But the ceramics are much lighter - which will help handling! So 6 of 1, 0.5 dozeon of the other! I wouldn't shy away from ceramics, but I wouldn't insist on them either.
seandudding said:
5) The only reliable way of getting more power I would recommend is the Manthey route. I beleive they can get 420 BHP now through exhaust and ECU changes.
There is also a fantastic (and very expensive) Manthey mod. that takes the engine to 3.9 and 440 bhp.
>> Edited by Joe911 on Thursday 16th June 10:08
JPF40 said:
Where can I see more info on the Manthey mods?
Their web site Manthey Motors
Or come to the Speed and Fun day at the Ring on the 29th June - it includes a tour round their facility and demo of their toys.
I hate ceramics. The only advantage is they are lighter and they don't shed brake dust.
Disadvantages - cost of replacement, poor feel, useless when cold, no better braking than steel (worse in German tests actually).
My GT2 runs steel fronts and they are great, much better than the PCCBs that I removed after starting to wear the 2nd set.
Guy
GuyR said:
I hate ceramics. The only advantage is they are lighter and they don't shed brake dust.
Disadvantages - cost of replacement, poor feel, useless when cold, no better braking than steel (worse in German tests actually)........
Guy
That is an incredible statement.. I'm not saying you're wrong, though.!
Only advantage is unsprung weight, which can easily be matched by non perishable rims.. no brake dust not an advantage
I wonder why Porsche still hype them and fit them as standard on GT2 or option on virtually everything else.. if there is only a downside..?
gunner said:
Steve,how would you address the question of whether the 997GT3/RS is worth the wait or whether the 996 version(s) pretty much represent peak development especially considering prices of good second hand cars available at the moment?Others please feel free to comment too.Many thanks.
I suspect that the 997RS will have the ceramic brakes of the current supercup cars and possibly the sequential gearbox. It is the chasis that sets the 996RS appart and I understand that the 997 will also share the same geometry. If that is so it will need more power to be substantially quicker. My feeling is that the car will run sticky Pirelli Corsa type R tyres to give it an edge on a ring lap.
I have no problem with ceramic brakes but for a driver who intends to track the car regularly they will prove prohivitely expensive. By comparison the brembo's cost pennies to replace.
America didn't like missing the party with the 996RS so it is possible that the 997RS will be 'Americanised' and therefore made in larger numbers than the 996.
I have a 997RS on order but I doubt that I will be buying one. I have driven many sports cars and racing cars. Set up as it is now with it's JRZ suspension and Brembo front brakes, it is the best road car that I have ever driven.
The standard RS has been tested at the ring at 7.40. With the JRZ set up and cup tyres, the car is capable of sub 7.30. That is mad quick for a genuine road car.
I know the 996RS pretty well now because I've been developing it with Parr for the last 18 months. It is an incredible car. If i were you, I'd be inclined to get a low mileage 996RS and spend say 5K on Suspension and brake upgrades. That will give you a car far better than the 997 will probably be out of the box and certainly a lot cheaper.
Steve R
steve rance said:
The standard RS has been tested at the ring at 7.40. With the JRZ set up and cup tyres, the car is capable of sub 7.30. That is mad quick for a genuine road car.
Hmmmm - can I be a little bit sceptical here. I've seen a 7:43 quoted for Herr Rohrl in a GT3RS - I would guess that's on Cup tyres already. To get under 7:30 in a non pure race-car 911 would be very very difficult indeed. The CGT only just makes 7:30 (I have seen a 7:28 listed).
But, hey, we're only talking a few seconds either way.
And, as you say, anything in that territory is "mad quick".
GT3 Rob said:
[quote=GuyR]
That is an incredible statement.. I'm not saying you're wrong, though.!
I wonder why Porsche still hype them and fit them as standard on GT2 or option on virtually everything else.. if there is only a downside..?
I can only speak as someone who has done 11,000 miles on ceramics, had one set replaced due to wear and watching the degredation on the second set.
Porsche are getting customers to do the testing on PCCBs. If there wasn't a problem with PCCB1, why is there a PCCB2..........?
That said I'd probably still live with them if they were £1k per pair to replace not £5k..........
Guy
I don't know about first generation PCCB or second, but I've put 28,000 rather spirited road miles on one set and the discs are perfect, the pads about 2/3 used.
On a second set of PCCB I have put about 200 pretty hard Nordscheife laps, and with it too the discs are flawless.
The weight savings of ceramic composites is not trivial: 15 kg saved in unsprung rotating weight is like 75 kg of sprung weight saved, in terms of acceleration/deceleration. Then you have to factor in the lightening of the steering and, most important, the suspension's improved ability to maintain the contact patch. Driving with ceramics, you can definitely feel the difference in the nimbleness of the car.
The PCCBs will not fade.
In addition to the reduction of brake dust (although it is not eliminated), the ceramic discs don't corrode.
MAnthey's view is that the problems that people have had with ceramic discs chipping or delaminating were down to the user's bedding in the discs inadequately (or not at all). It takes a lot longer than it does to bed in iron discs.
On a second set of PCCB I have put about 200 pretty hard Nordscheife laps, and with it too the discs are flawless.
The weight savings of ceramic composites is not trivial: 15 kg saved in unsprung rotating weight is like 75 kg of sprung weight saved, in terms of acceleration/deceleration. Then you have to factor in the lightening of the steering and, most important, the suspension's improved ability to maintain the contact patch. Driving with ceramics, you can definitely feel the difference in the nimbleness of the car.
The PCCBs will not fade.
In addition to the reduction of brake dust (although it is not eliminated), the ceramic discs don't corrode.
MAnthey's view is that the problems that people have had with ceramic discs chipping or delaminating were down to the user's bedding in the discs inadequately (or not at all). It takes a lot longer than it does to bed in iron discs.
Interesting that to get the most out of a GT3 RS, Cargraphic ditches the already uprated suspension in favour of Bilsteins, and ditches the very expensive RS rims, as well as other aerodynamic mods and engine upgrade.!
In my view you'd be better of buying a regular Clubsport Mk 2, saving 15k over the RS, then giving the car to someone like Cargraphic to do the rest..
Also you don't need to drive a white car..
www.pistonheads.co.uk/doc.asp?c=105&i=10565
In my view you'd be better of buying a regular Clubsport Mk 2, saving 15k over the RS, then giving the car to someone like Cargraphic to do the rest..
Also you don't need to drive a white car..
www.pistonheads.co.uk/doc.asp?c=105&i=10565
When I tracked my 996 GT2 with ceramics, despite bedding in as per Porsche specs. the fade was terrible. Even with DOT 5.1 fluid and braded hoses they were rubbish. Even with the most aggresive pads available from Porsche for them 1.5 track days and the pads were shot.
Flemke I'm amazed you've eeked out 28k miles on your GT with original discs and pads, someone mentioned a UK owner who had discs and calipers replaced by Porsche GB @ 14k miles FOC.
Flemke I'm amazed you've eeked out 28k miles on your GT with original discs and pads, someone mentioned a UK owner who had discs and calipers replaced by Porsche GB @ 14k miles FOC.
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