Selling a Zoe privately with battery hire

[BertBert]

Bought a Zoe on PCP coming up to 3 years ago and the battery is hired to us. We were told at the time that the battery couldn't be bought, but only hired (not sure that was completely accurate!). We fully expected to trade the car in at the end of 3 years. Now with the challenges of getting to buy a new car and the likely lead times post virus, we are looking at just buying the car (circa £4k). It does exactly what we want and the batter is still as good as the day we bought it. The new Zoe is nice, but not much better than the old, with only slightly higher range.

I'm not all that pleased about paying £80 to carry on renting the battery, but that's ok really and what I signed up to!

I just wondered if I came to sell it privately, will buyers take on a battery hire do we think? Anyone on here bought privately with the battery hire?

Cheers
Bert

[Europa Jon]

Hi Bert,

Rather than reading the uninformed opinions of myself and others, ask your PCP provider and/or RCI Finance. Get your information from the horse's mouth.
You have no doubt seen Zoes for sale with leased batteries, so it's doable.

[kambites]

Who are you leasing the battery from, Renault or the lease company? Assuming it's Renault, I believe (could be wrong) you can choose to buy it from them if you want to.

[BertBert]

Europa Jon said:

Hi Bert,
You have no doubt seen Zoes for sale with leased batteries, so it's doable.

Yes indeed. I just wondered if anyone had any specific experience of it as buyer or seller.

kambites said:

Who are you leasing the battery from, Renault or the lease company? Assuming it's Renault, I believe (could be wrong) you can choose to buy it from them if you want to.

Yep, the quote is £5,500 for a three year old battery. So all in all if feels like the car is currently under water if calculated like that.

[SCEtoAUX]

I bought my Leaf battery when the car came to the end of the PCP. Different manufacturer but still RCI Finance.

£4k for the car, £3k for the battery. It was on 40k miles.

[HTP99]

We have had no issue selling on battery hire ZOE's so I don't see why you would as a private sale.

Given you state that you can buy the car for £4k and assuming it is 3 years old (you say 3 year PCP), buy it as it will be worth far more than that.

[BertBert]

Thanks all. To buy is 4.4k for the car and 5.5k for the battery at 21k miles and 3 years (or keep the battery hire at £80pm). I'm not making much sense of the prices on Autotrader for comparison purposes as the ones with the battery owned and with the battery leased don't seem that different! However I think it's ok and leaves my options open to sell on should I need to!

Cheers
Bert

[lukeyman]

They've only recently announced that they were going go let people buyout the originally leased batteries. You're the first person I've seen report getting a quote for doing so.

I assume you've got a ZE40?

[BertBert]

lukeyman said:

They've only recently announced that they were going go let people buyout the originally leased batteries. You're the first person I've seen report getting a quote for doing so.

I assume you've got a ZE40?

Yes to it being a ZE40. I hadn't realised they had announced the ability to buy. I just phoned up and asked.

I was looking through all the terms of the battery lease to see what your obligations are when you sell. Ie who the finance company goes after if the new hirer doesn't pay. It looks like your obligation is to get the new owner to sign up and that's about it. Strange to be selling on a finance agreement in essentially an unregulated way. Feels a very odd transaction to me. Don't know if that happens in other examples of something on finance.

I was also looking to see if you could work out the value of the battery as it has to be insured for that amount. There is a total loss calculation which if you start at £6500 (which is what the internet says was the difference in car price between buying and leasing) and decrease the value by 10% per year starting year 2, then 2 years in gives you 80% of the £6500 as the value. But that's very rough estimating.

And re-looking at the paperwork again, the final payment is £4k, not £4.4k so all in all looks ok and it looks like private sales with the battery on hire probably ok too!

Bert

[lukeyman]

I've a got a battery leased ZE20 and have previously enquired about selling it on.

'Hi. Please could you offer some advice regarding selling a Zoe with battery lease privately? Would the potential new owner have to be credit checked to take over the lease? Would I be advised to wait until they have confirmation that the lease is in their name before releasing the car? Is it something that can be arranged over the phone? Regards, Luke'

To which...

'The new Leaseholder will go through a credit check and they will also need to complete a Battery Transfer form, once we have received the form and approved your Agreement will cease.'

Apparently it can be done the same day but you'd have to get someone to view the car during office hours and hope they answer the phone.

[BertBert]

lukeyman said:

I've a got a battery leased ZE20 and have previously enquired about selling it on.
'The new Leaseholder will go through a credit check and they will also need to complete a Battery Transfer form, once we have received the form and approved your Agreement will cease.'

Apparently it can be done the same day but you'd have to get someone to view the car during office hours and hope they answer the phone.

I'll re-read what the agreement says, but on first reading there is no obligation for the current hirer (me) to do any of that. I think all that is needed is for me to get a signature from the buyer. I think there would be all sorts of pain around RCI trying to enforce that with the regulation of financial services.

Interesting one. I was wondering if anyone on here had experienced this either as a seller or a buyer.

Bert

[giveitfish]

I bought my Zoe second hand (private sale) in December. Didn’t worry too much about the lease and just sorted it out the day after I got it home.

[poppopbangbang]

Has anyone had any joy doing this the opposite'ish way round. I want to buy a Zoe with a leased battery and return the battery to Renault but keep the car.

Reason being Zoes with leased batteries are dirt cheap and there are shed loads of crashed Zoes with perfectly good batteries available for a tiny amount of the cost Renault want to buy the battery out. Even accounting for the faff of having one good battery'less and one crashed Zoe around the place for a weekend it's still less than five grand for a Zoe with an owned battery by the time you're done.

Unsurprisingly there doesn't seem to be a method for buying one in a private sale, then phoning Renault with a cheery "Bonjour, où voulez-vous que cette batterie délivre."

[RobDickinson]

Remember leased batteries are Renault problem if they go wrong and you also get roadside recovery etc thrown in.

[BertBert]

BertBert said:

I'll re-read what the agreement says, but on first reading there is no obligation for the current hirer (me) to do any of that.
Bert

I suppose it's a life skill to know you've not read something properly

So on re-reading, the seller has to submit the private buyer's details to RCI who may or may not issue a new hiring agreement (subject to specific conditions regarding things like bankruptcy plus a general catch all of not in RCI's interest). Only when the new owner gets that form, signs it and sends it back is the seller off the hook for the hire payments and other obligations regarding loss etc. Definitely a faff.

As for...

poppopbangbang said:

Has anyone had any joy doing this the opposite'ish way round. I want to buy a Zoe with a leased battery and return the battery to Renault but keep the car.

Reason being Zoes with leased batteries are dirt cheap and there are shed loads of crashed Zoes with perfectly good batteries available for a tiny amount of the cost Renault want to buy the battery out. Even accounting for the faff of having one good battery'less and one crashed Zoe around the place for a weekend it's still less than five grand for a Zoe with an owned battery by the time you're done.

Unsurprisingly there doesn't seem to be a method for buying one in a private sale, then phoning Renault with a cheery "Bonjour, où voulez-vous que cette batterie délivre."

All you need to do is find a gullible seller, say you'll definitely send the new hire agreement back and then neglect to do that. They'll still be on the hook for the hire. If you then actually send back the battery to Renault, they may look kindly on the poor schmuck and let them off. Or they may not.

I can't find the right section in the Haynes manual on changing a Zoe battery, but it can't be much harder that a torch battery surely?

Bert

[RobDickinson]

BertBert said:

It can't be much harder that a torch battery surely?

Bert

Yeah , sure...

[DuncanM23]

poppopbangbang said:

Has anyone had any joy doing this the opposite'ish way round. I want to buy a Zoe with a leased battery and return the battery to Renault but keep the car.

Reason being Zoes with leased batteries are dirt cheap and there are shed loads of crashed Zoes with perfectly good batteries available for a tiny amount of the cost Renault want to buy the battery out. Even accounting for the faff of having one good battery'less and one crashed Zoe around the place for a weekend it's still less than five grand for a Zoe with an owned battery by the time you're done.

Unsurprisingly there doesn't seem to be a method for buying one in a private sale, then phoning Renault with a cheery "Bonjour, où voulez-vous que cette batterie délivre."

Are you sure that the crashed ones still have their battery? Check the Zoe facebook page and the Speak EV forums - I'm sure I've seen someone who is trying to achieve this and finding it really hard to get hold of a good battery to put in his car. I believe that they are also "keyed" to the car, so you need to get it on a proper Renault diagnostic machine to update the values before anything will work.
As for returning the Battery to Renault, in theory they have to have a way to do it, but I suspect they will make you get it removed at an approved Renault facility and charge you an arm and a leg for it. I'm not aware of anyone who has successfully done it with a Zoe or a Fluence.

[BertBert]

DuncanM23 said:

poppopbangbang said:

Has anyone had any joy doing this the opposite'ish way round. I want to buy a Zoe with a leased battery and return the battery to Renault but keep the car.

Reason being Zoes with leased batteries are dirt cheap and there are shed loads of crashed Zoes with perfectly good batteries available for a tiny amount of the cost Renault want to buy the battery out. Even accounting for the faff of having one good battery'less and one crashed Zoe around the place for a weekend it's still less than five grand for a Zoe with an owned battery by the time you're done.

Unsurprisingly there doesn't seem to be a method for buying one in a private sale, then phoning Renault with a cheery "Bonjour, où voulez-vous que cette batterie délivre."

Are you sure that the crashed ones still have their battery? Check the Zoe facebook page and the Speak EV forums - I'm sure I've seen someone who is trying to achieve this and finding it really hard to get hold of a good battery to put in his car. I believe that they are also "keyed" to the car, so you need to get it on a proper Renault diagnostic machine to update the values before anything will work.
As for returning the Battery to Renault, in theory they have to have a way to do it, but I suspect they will make you get it removed at an approved Renault facility and charge you an arm and a leg for it. I'm not aware of anyone who has successfully done it with a Zoe or a Fluence.

And certainly once you have signed the new hire agreement, it looks very challenging.
BErt

[poppopbangbang]

DuncanM23 said:

Are you sure that the crashed ones still have their battery? Check the Zoe facebook page and the Speak EV forums - I'm sure I've seen someone who is trying to achieve this and finding it really hard to get hold of a good battery to put in his car. I believe that they are also "keyed" to the car, so you need to get it on a proper Renault diagnostic machine to update the values before anything will work.
As for returning the Battery to Renault, in theory they have to have a way to do it, but I suspect they will make you get it removed at an approved Renault facility and charge you an arm and a leg for it. I'm not aware of anyone who has successfully done it with a Zoe or a Fluence.

Yep plenty of writes offs going through the salvage auctions complete with battery, doesn't matter if they were originally leased batteries or not as the least is terminated on write off and Renault paid out by the insurers. Cat B one here for example - https://www.copart.co.uk/lot/31800760 this would be perfect, no one wants it because it's flood damaged but the battery (being hermetically sealed) will be absolutely fine.

Coding the car to the battery is easy, 5 minutes via the OBD2 port and actually removing the battery and fitting a different one is equally childs play.

Block Exemption regulation means Renault can't insist they remove it, especially as it's a component designed to be removed with documented procedures for doing so etc.

[Fastlane]

poppopbangbang said:

Yep plenty of writes offs going through the salvage auctions complete with battery, doesn't matter if they were originally leased batteries or not as the least is terminated on write off and Renault paid out by the insurers. Cat B one here for example - https://www.copart.co.uk/lot/31800760 this would be perfect, no one wants it because it's flood damaged but the battery (being hermetically sealed) will be absolutely fine.

Coding the car to the battery is easy, 5 minutes via the OBD2 port and actually removing the battery and fitting a different one is equally childs play.

Block Exemption regulation means Renault can't insist they remove it, especially as it's a component designed to be removed with documented procedures for doing so etc.

OT but knowing what you do for a living, are EVs on your radar professionally? Any Formula E cars being bought privately that need your support? Just curious as the EV aftermarket is a huge potential opportunity, especially for someone with your expertise.