Failed Bearings on new Starter
Discussion
Hi all.
To give a bit of history on this as it might be relevant, I’ve been doing a lot of work on my 68 Mustang which has been running very intermittently since it was built about 10 years ago.
It’s a restomod style car with a Roush crate engine, a tremec TKO five speed box and a load of other mods.
Some of the running issues were down to some seriously shonky wiring and some lack of engineering knowledge in installing some of the mods by the guy that built it, the rest of the issues were down to fuelling. It always ran very rich but the issues were probably at least in part because of the lack of running and resulting stale fuel and varnish gumming up the carb.
During a period of trying to get it running right, the starter failed after a hellish journey where I limped it back home as it kept running and stalling due to intermittently jamming float needles. I’d been cranking it loads, it was a hot day, and eventually it became noisier and noisier until it ‘crapped out’ to use the phraseology of its origin country. I replaced it with a WOSP hi torque item.
Despite a few attempts at getting the carb right I eventually bit the bullet and replaced it with a Holley Sniper EFI system and since then it’s run the best it ever has.
...at least until the starter failed again. This time the pinion bearings have failed. There’s loads of slop in it and ball bearings are rolling around the back of the pinion.
It was used during some of the later running issues where it ended up intermittently quite lean and generating a lot of heat in the manifolds, enough to melt a rearmost plug lead cover which was oriented a bit too close one of the branches.
The engagement on the ring gear looks to be good by the marks on the pinion, plenty of overlap and although it’s got a few minor biffs it’s not wired for pre-engagement so probably to be expected?
As far as I can make out, these are thethree four (can’t count) options of why it’s gone so quickly:
- It got hot during the poor running and melted any rubber seals in the bearing or just burnt off the grease
- I’ve chosen the wrong spec of starter and it’s side loading it, but it went bloody quickly (can’t be more than 30 or 40 starts in total) and it looks to have the same geometry as the old one which had plenty of goes at turning the f
king thing over during the space of 10 years before I killed it
- Its remaining engaged but I can’t hear it because the thing is so bd loud when it’s running
- the starter is pony
Any ideas of which is most likely or any other suggestions? If anyone has any ways I can try to diagnose it other than sourcing one of the old starters and hoping for the best then I’m all ears.
To give a bit of history on this as it might be relevant, I’ve been doing a lot of work on my 68 Mustang which has been running very intermittently since it was built about 10 years ago.
It’s a restomod style car with a Roush crate engine, a tremec TKO five speed box and a load of other mods.
Some of the running issues were down to some seriously shonky wiring and some lack of engineering knowledge in installing some of the mods by the guy that built it, the rest of the issues were down to fuelling. It always ran very rich but the issues were probably at least in part because of the lack of running and resulting stale fuel and varnish gumming up the carb.
During a period of trying to get it running right, the starter failed after a hellish journey where I limped it back home as it kept running and stalling due to intermittently jamming float needles. I’d been cranking it loads, it was a hot day, and eventually it became noisier and noisier until it ‘crapped out’ to use the phraseology of its origin country. I replaced it with a WOSP hi torque item.
Despite a few attempts at getting the carb right I eventually bit the bullet and replaced it with a Holley Sniper EFI system and since then it’s run the best it ever has.
...at least until the starter failed again. This time the pinion bearings have failed. There’s loads of slop in it and ball bearings are rolling around the back of the pinion.
It was used during some of the later running issues where it ended up intermittently quite lean and generating a lot of heat in the manifolds, enough to melt a rearmost plug lead cover which was oriented a bit too close one of the branches.
The engagement on the ring gear looks to be good by the marks on the pinion, plenty of overlap and although it’s got a few minor biffs it’s not wired for pre-engagement so probably to be expected?
As far as I can make out, these are the
- It got hot during the poor running and melted any rubber seals in the bearing or just burnt off the grease
- I’ve chosen the wrong spec of starter and it’s side loading it, but it went bloody quickly (can’t be more than 30 or 40 starts in total) and it looks to have the same geometry as the old one which had plenty of goes at turning the f
king thing over during the space of 10 years before I killed it- Its remaining engaged but I can’t hear it because the thing is so b
d loud when it’s running- the starter is pony
Any ideas of which is most likely or any other suggestions? If anyone has any ways I can try to diagnose it other than sourcing one of the old starters and hoping for the best then I’m all ears.
Edited by The Wookie on Thursday 21st May 18:55
We had a VW T25 that ate 2 starters and also struggled to start, It turned out the gearbox casting wasn't the best and the starter wasn't pulled flat to it as one of the threads was weak, I think we were able to bodge, i mean carry out a temp repair without having to replace the gearbox casting. The starter was effectively moving when starting causing it not to start and flattening the battery.
Or if its an RTX starter from Euros then they are crap.
Or if its an RTX starter from Euros then they are crap.
stevemcs said:
We had a VW T25 that ate 2 starters and also struggled to start, It turned out the gearbox casting wasn't the best and the starter wasn't pulled flat to it as one of the threads was weak, I think we were able to bodge, i mean carry out a temp repair without having to replace the gearbox casting. The starter was effectively moving when starting causing it not to start and flattening the battery.
Or if its an RTX starter from Euros then they are crap.
That’s an interesting suggestion. As it happens there’s an adaptor plate which it bolts to which seems to have a pretty good finish but it could be that it’s not as well aligned as it could beOr if its an RTX starter from Euros then they are crap.
I’ve actually just this minute managed to dig the old one out of the loft in the garage and it actually has quite a lot of slop in it too which might suggest an alignment issue. Perhaps it just lived for longer as the new one is an open ended design whereas the old one has a piece which goes over the end of the pinion shaft and supports it at both ends
And sadly not, it was a bloody expensive aftermarket item!
That was a quick reply
Well shot after little work
Starter isn't the same as the original
Could be running in mesh due to pinion not being clear of flywheel ring gear or running in mesh due to pinion jamming on flywheel ring gear
Count number of teeth on old and new starter pinions
Measure diameter (across teeth) of old and new pinions with a vernier gauge
if all is good
1) Measure from bell-housing face to front of ring gear teeth
then
2) Measure from starter mounting bracket face to end of starter pinion teeth (Place a straight edge across the pinion face to help get the measurement)
Don't forget to include any starter spacer when measuring the above
Calculate pinion to ring gear clearance by deducting measurement 2 from measurement 1
Need something in the region of 3MM or more clearance
if all is good
There will be an electrical fault keeping a supply on the starter solenoid (doubtful)
Not trying to tell grandmother how to.............the above is just in-case you haven't already carried out the measuring
Well shot after little work
Starter isn't the same as the original
Could be running in mesh due to pinion not being clear of flywheel ring gear or running in mesh due to pinion jamming on flywheel ring gear
Count number of teeth on old and new starter pinions
Measure diameter (across teeth) of old and new pinions with a vernier gauge
if all is good
1) Measure from bell-housing face to front of ring gear teeth
then
2) Measure from starter mounting bracket face to end of starter pinion teeth (Place a straight edge across the pinion face to help get the measurement)
Don't forget to include any starter spacer when measuring the above
Calculate pinion to ring gear clearance by deducting measurement 2 from measurement 1
Need something in the region of 3MM or more clearance
if all is good
There will be an electrical fault keeping a supply on the starter solenoid (doubtful)
Not trying to tell grandmother how to.............the above is just in-case you haven't already carried out the measuring
Right measured the starter pinion and it’s definitely all right and correct compared to the old one so I did buy the right item it seems
The pinion position in relation to the mount holes is on a different point in the arc length but as close as I can make out seems to be right
Only thing left to check is the backspacing, will probably go to where the car is over the weekend to measure it
The pinion position in relation to the mount holes is on a different point in the arc length but as close as I can make out seems to be right
Only thing left to check is the backspacing, will probably go to where the car is over the weekend to measure it
Just to close the loop on this in case anyone is interested
A family friend who used to rebuild starters for a living took a look at both of the starters and actually managed to successfully repair both of them
The first starter which was supplied with the original engine had a plastic annulus gear on the reduction (he said it was just like an old Ford Escort starter so I'm guessing it's something they used worldwide) which had simply melted from being overheated, likely from overcranking as I thought
The second starter had knocked out the bearing as thought and is now back in and perfect with a new one. We did every measurement possible and couldn't find any issues but in his opinion it did seem to be a bit beaten up for the amount of use it had seen. The two options were that it had simply got too hot from the lean running as thought, or that it was indeed something to do with the starter solenoid that meant it was getting residual current and hanging on.
I've now rewired the starter circuit so that the solenoid is getting power from the key and the starter power is fed in separately, basically as it should be rather than bridged together as it was.
Seems to be starting better than ever now and can't hear any signs of it hanging on so fingers crossed it'll stay that way!
A family friend who used to rebuild starters for a living took a look at both of the starters and actually managed to successfully repair both of them
The first starter which was supplied with the original engine had a plastic annulus gear on the reduction (he said it was just like an old Ford Escort starter so I'm guessing it's something they used worldwide) which had simply melted from being overheated, likely from overcranking as I thought
The second starter had knocked out the bearing as thought and is now back in and perfect with a new one. We did every measurement possible and couldn't find any issues but in his opinion it did seem to be a bit beaten up for the amount of use it had seen. The two options were that it had simply got too hot from the lean running as thought, or that it was indeed something to do with the starter solenoid that meant it was getting residual current and hanging on.
I've now rewired the starter circuit so that the solenoid is getting power from the key and the starter power is fed in separately, basically as it should be rather than bridged together as it was.
Seems to be starting better than ever now and can't hear any signs of it hanging on so fingers crossed it'll stay that way!
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