Small claims dispute - quick question
Discussion
Hi all,
Not me honest!
A suffers a cost because of actions of B totalling £180 which B agrees to pay. B then refuses to pay after work is done and invoiced. There are phone messages / emails to confirm this.
Dispute drags on - 5 months plus.
B then claims A is harrassing them (not true) by replying to B's messages in a non abusive way and A 'once looked at their LinkedIn profile'.
A issues small claims for £180
B issues counterclaim for £10K for 'stress' and legal costs (I know you can't claim these in small claims).
Courts are in a bit of mayhem at the moment. Initial hearing is by phone this week. Person B has hired a junior barrister (yes really) to represent them.A represents themself.
Throughout person B has cut and pasted in / out messages and made up new messages to suit their claim and re-numbered document pages to look like they haven't been removed. All time and date stamps have been removed from B's handiwork. Person B has also put a piece of paper over the offer of ADR before it was photocopied and re-numbered the pages in their bundle to make it look like ADR was never offered.
During the hearing the Judge (rightly) says its a storm in a teacup that should have been settled by ADR. Person B's barrister then says "the offer of ADR was concealed to allow the case to proceed without prejudice to their client B" ??????????
What does that actually mean and are they allowed to tamper with documents in this way? This is what I can't get my head around.
The Judge has said he will give it 28 days to go back to ADR then will revisit. In the meantime person B has now made a request for the case to go to the High Court as apparently 'harassment' cannot be heard in small claims.
Can person A make any claim to the court to look at the proof that B is deliberately tampering with the evidence and throw B's case out?
Thanks
Not me honest!
A suffers a cost because of actions of B totalling £180 which B agrees to pay. B then refuses to pay after work is done and invoiced. There are phone messages / emails to confirm this.
Dispute drags on - 5 months plus.
B then claims A is harrassing them (not true) by replying to B's messages in a non abusive way and A 'once looked at their LinkedIn profile'.
A issues small claims for £180
B issues counterclaim for £10K for 'stress' and legal costs (I know you can't claim these in small claims).
Courts are in a bit of mayhem at the moment. Initial hearing is by phone this week. Person B has hired a junior barrister (yes really) to represent them.A represents themself.
Throughout person B has cut and pasted in / out messages and made up new messages to suit their claim and re-numbered document pages to look like they haven't been removed. All time and date stamps have been removed from B's handiwork. Person B has also put a piece of paper over the offer of ADR before it was photocopied and re-numbered the pages in their bundle to make it look like ADR was never offered.
During the hearing the Judge (rightly) says its a storm in a teacup that should have been settled by ADR. Person B's barrister then says "the offer of ADR was concealed to allow the case to proceed without prejudice to their client B" ??????????
What does that actually mean and are they allowed to tamper with documents in this way? This is what I can't get my head around.
The Judge has said he will give it 28 days to go back to ADR then will revisit. In the meantime person B has now made a request for the case to go to the High Court as apparently 'harassment' cannot be heard in small claims.
Can person A make any claim to the court to look at the proof that B is deliberately tampering with the evidence and throw B's case out?
Thanks
A and B are both idiots and deserve one another.
The way you persuade a civil court that a party is lying and/or has fabricated a document is that you persuade the Judge on the balance of probabilities that such is the case. A has to produce the undoctored material and persuade the Judge that it and not the doctored versions are the real ones.
A could apply to the court to strike out a claim that has been manufactured. But in a case of this kind the Judge will probably say "this is all nonsense, I am not spending time analysing this rubbish in detail, there are other people with real cases that need deciding, all of you just go away".
A should be ashamed of himself for wasting the limited public resources of the court with his trivia.
The way you persuade a civil court that a party is lying and/or has fabricated a document is that you persuade the Judge on the balance of probabilities that such is the case. A has to produce the undoctored material and persuade the Judge that it and not the doctored versions are the real ones.
A could apply to the court to strike out a claim that has been manufactured. But in a case of this kind the Judge will probably say "this is all nonsense, I am not spending time analysing this rubbish in detail, there are other people with real cases that need deciding, all of you just go away".
A should be ashamed of himself for wasting the limited public resources of the court with his trivia.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 24th May 07:56
Vron said:
I wouldn’t have gone to court over £180 but as said it’s not me. The main point I was interested in was the barristers comment about concealing the offer of ADR ?
You have no idea what the barrister said because you were not there, right? I am not commenting on some garbled account relayed by your idiot friend. I also do not believe that your idiot friend exists.
ks to the judge then with respect to covering up the ADR. So you’re telling me the Defendant entered a counter claim to the value of £10k? That in itself requires a Court issue fee of £455.
Has the matter been allocated to the fast track due to the value/nature of the counterclaim? If it has, you’d best tread carefully because unless you successfully defeat the totality of the counterclaim you’re going to have to pay the costs of and associated with said counterclaim which starts at £455 for the issue fee couple with solicitor’s costs, disbursements, VAT...
Has the matter been allocated to the fast track due to the value/nature of the counterclaim? If it has, you’d best tread carefully because unless you successfully defeat the totality of the counterclaim you’re going to have to pay the costs of and associated with said counterclaim which starts at £455 for the issue fee couple with solicitor’s costs, disbursements, VAT...
The barrister may have been taking the position that the offer of ADR had been made without prejudice to the claim asserted, and so could not be shown to the court. The without prejudice rule is a rule of evidence that is misunderstood by 99.9999999999999999% of all litigants in person and people posting on the internet (and also by some actual lawyers).
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
KungFuPanda said:
So you’re telling me the Defendant entered a counter claim to the value of £10k? That in itself requires a Court issue fee of £455.
Has the matter been allocated to the fast track due to the value/nature of the counterclaim? If it has, you’d best tread carefully because unless you successfully defeat the totality of the counterclaim you’re going to have to pay the costs of and associated with said counterclaim which starts at £455 for the issue fee couple with solicitor’s costs, disbursements, VAT...
Yes B has apparently run up £6k in costs fighting the £180 and the other £4K is for the distress caused. Tops it up to the max for small claims. Has the matter been allocated to the fast track due to the value/nature of the counterclaim? If it has, you’d best tread carefully because unless you successfully defeat the totality of the counterclaim you’re going to have to pay the costs of and associated with said counterclaim which starts at £455 for the issue fee couple with solicitor’s costs, disbursements, VAT...
Breadvan72 said:
The barrister may have been taking the position that the offer of ADR had been made without prejudice to the claim asserted, and so could not be shown to the court. The without prejudice rule is a rule of evidence that is misunderstood by 99.9999999999999999% of all litigants in person and people posting on the internet (and also by some actual lawyers).
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
Vron said:
Breadvan72 said:
The barrister may have been taking the position that the offer of ADR had been made without prejudice to the claim asserted, and so could not be shown to the court. The without prejudice rule is a rule of evidence that is misunderstood by 99.9999999999999999% of all litigants in person and people posting on the internet (and also by some actual lawyers).
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
Looks like BV was spot on.
syl said:
What makes it trivia - the value of the claim? Should there be no opportunity for redress for lower value claims and how high(/low) should the bar be set?
You could sue for 50 pence if you liked. But de minimins non curat lex - the law does not deal in trifles. The law is more real world than people often suppose. Sung for £180 is, in real world terms, unwise. Now A is locked into a stupid fight with a stupid opponent. Vron said:
Hi all,
Not me honest!
A suffers a cost because of actions of B totalling £180 which B agrees to pay. B then refuses to pay after work is done and invoiced. There are phone messages / emails to confirm this.
Dispute drags on - 5 months plus.
B then claims A is harrassing them (not true) by replying to B's messages in a non abusive way and A 'once looked at their LinkedIn profile'.
A issues small claims for £180
B issues counterclaim for £10K for 'stress' and legal costs (I know you can't claim these in small claims).
Courts are in a bit of mayhem at the moment. Initial hearing is by phone this week. Person B has hired a junior barrister (yes really) to represent them.A represents themself.
Throughout person B has cut and pasted in / out messages and made up new messages to suit their claim and re-numbered document pages to look like they haven't been removed. All time and date stamps have been removed from B's handiwork. Person B has also put a piece of paper over the offer of ADR before it was photocopied and re-numbered the pages in their bundle to make it look like ADR was never offered.
During the hearing the Judge (rightly) says its a storm in a teacup that should have been settled by ADR. Person B's barrister then says "the offer of ADR was concealed to allow the case to proceed without prejudice to their client B" ??????????
What does that actually mean and are they allowed to tamper with documents in this way? This is what I can't get my head around.
The Judge has said he will give it 28 days to go back to ADR then will revisit. In the meantime person B has now made a request for the case to go to the High Court as apparently 'harassment' cannot be heard in small claims.
Can person A make any claim to the court to look at the proof that B is deliberately tampering with the evidence and throw B's case out?
Thanks
Not me honest!
A suffers a cost because of actions of B totalling £180 which B agrees to pay. B then refuses to pay after work is done and invoiced. There are phone messages / emails to confirm this.
Dispute drags on - 5 months plus.
B then claims A is harrassing them (not true) by replying to B's messages in a non abusive way and A 'once looked at their LinkedIn profile'.
A issues small claims for £180
B issues counterclaim for £10K for 'stress' and legal costs (I know you can't claim these in small claims).
Courts are in a bit of mayhem at the moment. Initial hearing is by phone this week. Person B has hired a junior barrister (yes really) to represent them.A represents themself.
Throughout person B has cut and pasted in / out messages and made up new messages to suit their claim and re-numbered document pages to look like they haven't been removed. All time and date stamps have been removed from B's handiwork. Person B has also put a piece of paper over the offer of ADR before it was photocopied and re-numbered the pages in their bundle to make it look like ADR was never offered.
During the hearing the Judge (rightly) says its a storm in a teacup that should have been settled by ADR. Person B's barrister then says "the offer of ADR was concealed to allow the case to proceed without prejudice to their client B" ??????????
What does that actually mean and are they allowed to tamper with documents in this way? This is what I can't get my head around.
The Judge has said he will give it 28 days to go back to ADR then will revisit. In the meantime person B has now made a request for the case to go to the High Court as apparently 'harassment' cannot be heard in small claims.
Can person A make any claim to the court to look at the proof that B is deliberately tampering with the evidence and throw B's case out?
Thanks
Vron said:
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
No it wasn't. If that was the case then A was foolish in having the work carried out before cleared payment was received.
Edited by paintman on Sunday 24th May 10:45
paintman said:
Vron said:
Breadvan72 said:
The barrister may have been taking the position that the offer of ADR had been made without prejudice to the claim asserted, and so could not be shown to the court. The without prejudice rule is a rule of evidence that is misunderstood by 99.9999999999999999% of all litigants in person and people posting on the internet (and also by some actual lawyers).
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
The idiot friend is a family member who actually isn’t an idiot. A has taken legal advice after the £10k counterclaim landed from B’s solicitor. A’s solicitor made the offer of ADR to B’s solicitor late last year. This is why we can’t understand the barristers comments. Notes were made during the phone hearing and A rang me straight after the main point of the conversation being what the barrister had said.
The dispute was over the unpaid £180 bill which as was said in the OP, had been agreed via messages that B would pay before work commenced.
B reneged then basically started blackmailing A that they had CCTV of A’s 15 year old son drunk several months previously that they were going to share on social media. Of no relevance at all to the claim. That’s when A’s gloves came off. Why had B saved / taken footage of A’s son etc etc.
So not asking for legal advice as that is already in hand. It was simply for opinions on why the barrister said what she did about the offer of ADR.
No need for name calling.
OP, your idiot friend has no idea what he or she is doing. You have no idea what your idiot friend is doing. Asking here won't help, because none of us have the first clue what this ridiculous dispute is about. Trying to give your idiot friend remote control distance learning legal advice via comments made by anonymous people on a car forum is,... ambitious.
Looks like BV was spot on.
The mention of the blackmail was in response to BreadVan's comments about the amount being too low to bother the courts with.
That's the only reason why it went to small claims - the blackmail threat by B. I would be pissed off if someone said they would spread video of my child on social media. It has since transpired via B's solicitor no such CCTV exists and B doesn't even have CCTV. B is claiming harassment and costs of £10K for being asked to provide a copy of the CCTV evidence they claimed they had. The 'harrasment' claim is being transferred to the High Court by B as it cannot be heard in small claims. Thus the small claims hearing on Thursday was solely to do with the £180 invoice.
Yes A should have got payment up front but A was unaware of the dishonesty and deviousness of B which has since been demonstrated.
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