Anti-capitalists / pro Socialists on PH?
Discussion
Quite a topical issue on PH given that it is riot season again.
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
GroundZero said:
Quite a topical issue on PH given that it is riot season again.
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
Most western democracies have aspects of each. I don’t think many people are arguing for pure socialist or capitalist “regimes” A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
We’ve got market led solutions and a reasonably deregulated economy but free schools and hospitals and the state provides a bit if you get into trouble. Paid for by high taxation. The U.K. is about right in my view, especially after the recent budget announcement.
I think what you think are PH “anti capitalists”are just people saying a bit more support for the state might be good or a bit more regulation or accountability in parts of the economy might not be so bad.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone on here arguing against (or for) capitalism in its entirety or suggesting they want to live in a pure socialist state.
GroundZero said:
Quite a topical issue on PH given that it is riot season again.
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
I don't think I have ever met anyone who wanted a full bolshevik revolution, most people I have met who are angry with the way the system works are against the corporate monopoly and lack of government responsibility/accountability surrounding it. A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
Not many people really hate the person who got lucky with their small business and amassed a fortune, it changes when monopolies cause you to lose competition both on a business and personal level.
These topics are not easy to break down into snappy soundbites and its not common to read political theory or economics so you end up with loud basic arguments where both sides come away with a stereotyped view of the other.
I know one thing that especially pressing for a car forum. Socialist governments are usually pretty bad for car choice.
For example when VW first produced the Golf GTi in 1976, the Trabant was still being produced on the other side of the wall and went on being produced for another 14 years.
For example when VW first produced the Golf GTi in 1976, the Trabant was still being produced on the other side of the wall and went on being produced for another 14 years.
GroundZero said:
Quite a topical issue on PH given that it is riot season again.
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
Does supporting BLM mean that somebody is anti-Capitalist or pro-Socialist?A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
The media are giving more and more coverage to the anti-capitalists within society, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
Also, does suggesting that we need to invest more in Healthcare, Education, the Police, and general infrastructure via higher taxation automatically mean that somebody is anti-Capitalist/pro-Socialist?
jimothyc said:
I know one thing that especially pressing for a car forum. Socialist governments are usually pretty bad for car choice.
For example when VW first produced the Golf GTi in 1976, the Trabant was still being produced on the other side of the wall and went on being produced for another 14 years.
But, going back to the earlier point of most people wanting a mix rather than pure capitalism or pure socialism, the Golf GTI was built by a company with mandatory trade union membership, legally-required worker representatives on the board and in which the regional government owned a significant stake.For example when VW first produced the Golf GTi in 1976, the Trabant was still being produced on the other side of the wall and went on being produced for another 14 years.
There is huge scope to go left-wards from where we are in the UK presently while still maintaining a capitalist system. In fact to a point many left-wing politics help capitalism run more effectively by acting as a sort of governor, allowing the economic engine to work without running away and destroying itself.
Randy Winkman said:
On the recent "Why is PH so right-wing?" thread (something like that anyway), some PHers said that PH was actually more left-wing than right-wing. So I assume there will be lots of people ready to explain their views on this thread. Not sure who though.
That was a little strange. I suspect that it all depends upon the position of the observer.
Despite the often bizarre tribalism that exists in (online) society, most people do not have extreme views and their differences are often quite small in the real world.
There is possibly a spectrum (not left-right wing) with fully even wealth distribution (free stuff) with no responsibilities at one end and total selfishness at the other end.
People's views will be somewhere along this, and I suspect that very few, if any, will be at the fully even wealth distribution end on here.
GroundZero said:
Quite a topical issue on PH given that it is riot season again.
A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
............................................, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
I am sure all 3 of them will be along to tell you why. A question to those who are anti-capitalist and pro Socialist here on the PH forum, I wonder if I could ask why a Socialist regime would be better in the UK than a capitalist one?
............................................, so maybe on this thread those who happily sign up to that mindset could explain why ?
I think many would accept that over the past decade there has been a rise within the youth holding a socialist mindset. The seasonal riots demonstrate this with the same anti-capitalist banners and shouty slogans that the media put in front of us.
As someone who would call themselves "centre-right" I do see the dangers of unregulated capitalism with huge private corporations taking control over the world and therefore our lives, and I very much see the dangers of socialism with people handing power and control to the state.
But centre-politics doesn't appear in riot season nor often on social media. The mainstream media also don't often offer a balanced view, with claims of bias from both sides (more often favouring the left).
The previous riot season when Corbinov was still leader of labour, the banners of "Kill Boris", "kill the tories", "not my PM", "bring down capitalism", etc. were seen in the riots/protests of the usual crowds (last year the crowd branded itself as extinction rebellion - but we all know it is more or less the same crowd of usual left wing representatives who take to the streets).
It seems there are quite a lot of "revolutionist" mind sets in the UK youth seen each time there is a riot/protest. Recently tearing down and targeting statues instead of following democratic methods.
Many socialist mindsets point to Scandinavia as being the 'model' nation for where they want the UK to be. But scandinavia is not socialist, it is a market driven economy made up of private enterprises, where I think it was the Danish PM having to announce to the world that Denmark was not, and had no intention of heading towards a socialist regime - in order to rebut the claims of Bernie Sanders who was stating that those nations were the form of socialism that he wanted the USA to adopt.
The current socialist movement narrative is based up on more or less, one single word and that is "inequality".
The whole modern ideology seems to be based on that one word. And sure there are inequalities in the world, and that is more often than not by pure choice and desire for a person to better themselves. Most other inequalities have been sorted out via democratic processes.
This reply is just a few random points thrown together for others to comment on. But I do wonder if those who may be see themselves as more left wing than others, do you support a violent (revolutionist) approach in order to force people in to your way of thinking? (as seen in the riots)
As someone who would call themselves "centre-right" I do see the dangers of unregulated capitalism with huge private corporations taking control over the world and therefore our lives, and I very much see the dangers of socialism with people handing power and control to the state.
But centre-politics doesn't appear in riot season nor often on social media. The mainstream media also don't often offer a balanced view, with claims of bias from both sides (more often favouring the left).
The previous riot season when Corbinov was still leader of labour, the banners of "Kill Boris", "kill the tories", "not my PM", "bring down capitalism", etc. were seen in the riots/protests of the usual crowds (last year the crowd branded itself as extinction rebellion - but we all know it is more or less the same crowd of usual left wing representatives who take to the streets).
It seems there are quite a lot of "revolutionist" mind sets in the UK youth seen each time there is a riot/protest. Recently tearing down and targeting statues instead of following democratic methods.
Many socialist mindsets point to Scandinavia as being the 'model' nation for where they want the UK to be. But scandinavia is not socialist, it is a market driven economy made up of private enterprises, where I think it was the Danish PM having to announce to the world that Denmark was not, and had no intention of heading towards a socialist regime - in order to rebut the claims of Bernie Sanders who was stating that those nations were the form of socialism that he wanted the USA to adopt.
The current socialist movement narrative is based up on more or less, one single word and that is "inequality".
The whole modern ideology seems to be based on that one word. And sure there are inequalities in the world, and that is more often than not by pure choice and desire for a person to better themselves. Most other inequalities have been sorted out via democratic processes.
This reply is just a few random points thrown together for others to comment on. But I do wonder if those who may be see themselves as more left wing than others, do you support a violent (revolutionist) approach in order to force people in to your way of thinking? (as seen in the riots)
GroundZero said:
I think many would accept that over the past decade there has been a rise within the youth holding a socialist mindset. The seasonal riots demonstrate this with the same anti-capitalist banners and shouty slogans that the media put in front of us.
Unless you're quite young, or a recent arrival to the UK, I've no idea why would would think that. protest marches/riots have been going on since the we've had a functioning democracy. During my lifetime I can remember the massive strikes in the 70's, the various inner city riots in the 80's, the Council tax riots in the 90's, the anti-War marches in the 2000s.And it's not a wholly left-wing thing either. I remember National Front marches, a tradition still continued by the EDL.
Anyway I'm guessing the purpose of this thread is to create an "Aren't all lefties eveil boooo....." echo chamber so I'll leave you to it,
Eric Mc said:
GroundZero said:
Eric Mc said:
Why is it a binary choice?
It may not be for some. For others it likely is just that - depends on how ideologically driven the individual is.
Basically, what Eric said.
In terms of the state, I think most of us will have had recent cause to ponder the virtues of the NHS and be grateful it exists and even consider how it might be made better, or even receive more funding where absolutely required. I doubt that makes us necessarily socialist.
I wouldn't have thought there are many outright anti-capitalists on PH due to the nature of the hobby.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
Tankrizzo said:
I wouldn't have thought there are many outright anti-capitalists on PH due to the nature of the hobby.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
Even as a self-confessed PH "lefty" I'm not claiming to be "anti-capitalist" or even "socialist".Randy Winkman said:
Tankrizzo said:
I wouldn't have thought there are many outright anti-capitalists on PH due to the nature of the hobby.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
I suspect most of the things we all argue about are in reality just a few degrees away from each other politically, despite the rhetoric of "PH is all lefty lentilists" or "PH is all nazi racists" from some of our weirder members.
Even as a self-confessed PH "lefty" I'm not claiming to be "anti-capitalist" or even "socialist".The U.K. has been pretty centrist for decades. The arguments tend to be around the edges of western liberalist middle ground politics. Yes we should have free healthcare but how much should the government put in, or how much social care should go to a mother of 12 kids etc.
No party is talking about getting rid of the NHS or drastically increasing or decreasing taxation. Corbyn’s lot failed for going a bit too far left and the public didn’t like it.
Blairite Blair and Cameron (red Tory) May (one nation Tory) Boris are all fairly similar TBH. Starmer looks similar too but has a problem with the ghost of corbyn hanging around and some dangerous idiots like Rayner still in his shadow cabinet.
Anyone who’s lived abroad in countries with a more capitalist or more socialist system can tell you that the U.K. is pretty middle of the road and centrist on the traditional left/right political spectrum.
GroundZero said:
I think many would accept that over the past decade there has been a rise within the youth holding a socialist mindset. The seasonal riots demonstrate this with the same anti-capitalist banners and shouty slogans that the media put in front of us.
As someone who would call themselves "centre-right" I do see the dangers of unregulated capitalism with huge private corporations taking control over the world and therefore our lives, and I very much see the dangers of socialism with people handing power and control to the state.
But centre-politics doesn't appear in riot season nor often on social media. The mainstream media also don't often offer a balanced view, with claims of bias from both sides (more often favouring the left).
The previous riot season when Corbinov was still leader of labour, the banners of "Kill Boris", "kill the tories", "not my PM", "bring down capitalism", etc. were seen in the riots/protests of the usual crowds (last year the crowd branded itself as extinction rebellion - but we all know it is more or less the same crowd of usual left wing representatives who take to the streets).
It seems there are quite a lot of "revolutionist" mind sets in the UK youth seen each time there is a riot/protest. Recently tearing down and targeting statues instead of following democratic methods.
Many socialist mindsets point to Scandinavia as being the 'model' nation for where they want the UK to be. But scandinavia is not socialist, it is a market driven economy made up of private enterprises, where I think it was the Danish PM having to announce to the world that Denmark was not, and had no intention of heading towards a socialist regime - in order to rebut the claims of Bernie Sanders who was stating that those nations were the form of socialism that he wanted the USA to adopt.
The current socialist movement narrative is based up on more or less, one single word and that is "inequality".
The whole modern ideology seems to be based on that one word. And sure there are inequalities in the world, and that is more often than not by pure choice and desire for a person to better themselves. Most other inequalities have been sorted out via democratic processes.
This reply is just a few random points thrown together for others to comment on. But I do wonder if those who may be see themselves as more left wing than others, do you support a violent (revolutionist) approach in order to force people in to your way of thinking? (as seen in the riots)
Socialism can mean almost whatever the person saying it wants it to mean. As a definition it is a socially owned economy however I don't think most people would use that definition in conversation. Most people who use the term mean some kind of redistribution of wealth for social prosperity and when comparing the state social provisions in the US to the Nordic countries it looks like a socialist model. That is why Bernie Sanders can say its that kind of model they want to follow, he is a smart man and is not promoting a managed economy in the soviet sense. As someone who would call themselves "centre-right" I do see the dangers of unregulated capitalism with huge private corporations taking control over the world and therefore our lives, and I very much see the dangers of socialism with people handing power and control to the state.
But centre-politics doesn't appear in riot season nor often on social media. The mainstream media also don't often offer a balanced view, with claims of bias from both sides (more often favouring the left).
The previous riot season when Corbinov was still leader of labour, the banners of "Kill Boris", "kill the tories", "not my PM", "bring down capitalism", etc. were seen in the riots/protests of the usual crowds (last year the crowd branded itself as extinction rebellion - but we all know it is more or less the same crowd of usual left wing representatives who take to the streets).
It seems there are quite a lot of "revolutionist" mind sets in the UK youth seen each time there is a riot/protest. Recently tearing down and targeting statues instead of following democratic methods.
Many socialist mindsets point to Scandinavia as being the 'model' nation for where they want the UK to be. But scandinavia is not socialist, it is a market driven economy made up of private enterprises, where I think it was the Danish PM having to announce to the world that Denmark was not, and had no intention of heading towards a socialist regime - in order to rebut the claims of Bernie Sanders who was stating that those nations were the form of socialism that he wanted the USA to adopt.
The current socialist movement narrative is based up on more or less, one single word and that is "inequality".
The whole modern ideology seems to be based on that one word. And sure there are inequalities in the world, and that is more often than not by pure choice and desire for a person to better themselves. Most other inequalities have been sorted out via democratic processes.
This reply is just a few random points thrown together for others to comment on. But I do wonder if those who may be see themselves as more left wing than others, do you support a violent (revolutionist) approach in order to force people in to your way of thinking? (as seen in the riots)
I don't think the text in bold about choice is true by any extent, social mobility is possible but children with professional parents are 80% more likely to go into professional occupations (Social Market Foundation). The cuts to education spending per pupil will only increase that divide.
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