Head gasket problems
Discussion
HI
I have a Kia Rio 2011, it had been losing coolant and after a problem with overheating, it would not start properly, I took it to a garage and they told me it was the head gasket. I then took it to another garage for a second opinion and they verified this.
I have had the work done by the second garage, the part was sent away and skimmed, there was no other issues whilst they had the car and so I picked the car up yesterday to bring home. They told me they had tested it and everything was fine, just pop in one day this week so they could check the oil and water levels (I was told there can sometimes be an airlock after work of this kind).
The problem I have now is it is not starting properly still, it takes around 2/3 seconds to start, and the coolant is lowering in the reservoir when I check it every few hours. This can't be normal? What did they test? Because it seems to me they have charged me a lot of money to give me back my car in the same condition.
If this helps they had the car for around 3 weeks so it will have been sat idle for that time.
I'm not great with cars so I've tried to put as much in as I can.
All help/advice/ thoughts appreciated
Thanks
Mike
I have a Kia Rio 2011, it had been losing coolant and after a problem with overheating, it would not start properly, I took it to a garage and they told me it was the head gasket. I then took it to another garage for a second opinion and they verified this.
I have had the work done by the second garage, the part was sent away and skimmed, there was no other issues whilst they had the car and so I picked the car up yesterday to bring home. They told me they had tested it and everything was fine, just pop in one day this week so they could check the oil and water levels (I was told there can sometimes be an airlock after work of this kind).
The problem I have now is it is not starting properly still, it takes around 2/3 seconds to start, and the coolant is lowering in the reservoir when I check it every few hours. This can't be normal? What did they test? Because it seems to me they have charged me a lot of money to give me back my car in the same condition.
If this helps they had the car for around 3 weeks so it will have been sat idle for that time.
I'm not great with cars so I've tried to put as much in as I can.
All help/advice/ thoughts appreciated
Thanks
Mike
Thoughts from me
- observation (not criticism) but the garage know a lot more than you. Be wary before accusing them of not doing anything, else you risk losing any further co operation
- looking at the engine bay, does it "seem" like the head has been off? With the engine cover removed, do bolts look clean? Clips on hoses covered in dirt, or freshly touched? The HG is about one third of the way down an engine..sometimes there is a tab that pokes out..does the material look new or clean? No use asking for parts now. If you seriously suspect them of just parking it up for 3 weeks you'll need an independent report by an engineer (£££) and then face an unspecified length of time in the legal system.
- a leakdown test can be googled but is basically more evidence based than a mechanic going "yeah, bound to be hg, see it all the time on these". It presurises the cylinder and then traces where pressure is leaking out of (into sump = rings, into head = valves, into coolant = hg, but also between cylinders could be a crack). It's going to cost, as it involves more work and skill
- i'm not going to try and diagnose this as i'm just some chap with an internet connection but if you describe how it struggles to start, others might? Poor compression for example would cause trouble starting, but I doubt low coolant on its own would.
- can you see a coolant leak? Ie pipes weeping? Leaves a white residue so might need to clean up pipe joins first.
- does it run hot, or the temp gauge swing up and down? (Low coolant or air lock)
Hope you get it sorted.
- observation (not criticism) but the garage know a lot more than you. Be wary before accusing them of not doing anything, else you risk losing any further co operation
- looking at the engine bay, does it "seem" like the head has been off? With the engine cover removed, do bolts look clean? Clips on hoses covered in dirt, or freshly touched? The HG is about one third of the way down an engine..sometimes there is a tab that pokes out..does the material look new or clean? No use asking for parts now. If you seriously suspect them of just parking it up for 3 weeks you'll need an independent report by an engineer (£££) and then face an unspecified length of time in the legal system.
- a leakdown test can be googled but is basically more evidence based than a mechanic going "yeah, bound to be hg, see it all the time on these". It presurises the cylinder and then traces where pressure is leaking out of (into sump = rings, into head = valves, into coolant = hg, but also between cylinders could be a crack). It's going to cost, as it involves more work and skill
- i'm not going to try and diagnose this as i'm just some chap with an internet connection but if you describe how it struggles to start, others might? Poor compression for example would cause trouble starting, but I doubt low coolant on its own would.
- can you see a coolant leak? Ie pipes weeping? Leaves a white residue so might need to clean up pipe joins first.
- does it run hot, or the temp gauge swing up and down? (Low coolant or air lock)
Hope you get it sorted.
I'm always very mindfull of diagnosing HG failure - it's turned out to be either oil cooler failure, or occasionally EGR failure (Water cooled EGR allows water into the engine, and allows combustion gases into the water before anyone takes the piss too much).
Less likely on a basic petrol engine.
I've also had cracked heads, and in one memorable case (for all the wrong reasons), I had HG failure 3 times on the trot on the same engine. Root cause was incorrect spec on the head bolt torque in our manufacturers data system. More torque = no gasket failure.
Take it back OP, and have a sensible chat about where you go from here. Most workshops will react well to that, as they don't want to do a poor job, and will want to get it sorted.
Best of luck.
Less likely on a basic petrol engine.
I've also had cracked heads, and in one memorable case (for all the wrong reasons), I had HG failure 3 times on the trot on the same engine. Root cause was incorrect spec on the head bolt torque in our manufacturers data system. More torque = no gasket failure.
Take it back OP, and have a sensible chat about where you go from here. Most workshops will react well to that, as they don't want to do a poor job, and will want to get it sorted.
Best of luck.
Thank you for all your replies.
I'm not saying the garage didn't do anything but you can see my frustration of them having it for so long and charging me a large amount of money to give it back to me with the same problems, especially after they said the tested it and it was all fine.
Surely when they tested it they had to start it, they would have seen the problem then. When I say problem starting I mean it is turning over for a few seconds before it starts, would it do that if it was the battery? I am not great with cars but was led to believe it would not turn at all.
We were quoted a price only for it to almost double before any work was done and they said once the head gasket was done, it would be working fine, this put me in the frame of mind that this was the only problem but they've done the work with there still being an issue. If we were told it's your head gasket plus xxx and this is the price, then fine. But to be told all would be fine for a broken car to be returned is so infuriating.
They are closed today but I will be ringing first thing in the morning, thanks again for your replies.
I'm not saying the garage didn't do anything but you can see my frustration of them having it for so long and charging me a large amount of money to give it back to me with the same problems, especially after they said the tested it and it was all fine.
Surely when they tested it they had to start it, they would have seen the problem then. When I say problem starting I mean it is turning over for a few seconds before it starts, would it do that if it was the battery? I am not great with cars but was led to believe it would not turn at all.
We were quoted a price only for it to almost double before any work was done and they said once the head gasket was done, it would be working fine, this put me in the frame of mind that this was the only problem but they've done the work with there still being an issue. If we were told it's your head gasket plus xxx and this is the price, then fine. But to be told all would be fine for a broken car to be returned is so infuriating.
They are closed today but I will be ringing first thing in the morning, thanks again for your replies.
As others have said maybe the battery is past its best so cranking slower (you mentioned it had been sat for 3 weeks have you got a battery charger or jump leads to test his theory). Likely battery was removed disconnected during works perhaps there is a learn procedure on the ecu. Does the heater blow hot air? What do the coolant pipes feel like after it has been up to temperature and say sat for half an hour to an hour do they go soft? What does the performance feel like? Out of interest how much was the total bill for the job.
I'm really hoping it's something as simple as the battery but it's still annoying that it went like this whilst they had it, it's not my fault their co presser went down so they couldn't test it and other variables that happened, but saying that I'll take a flat battery and walk away happy 🤣
There is hot air coming through the vents, you'll have to explain to me about the pipes as I want to give you the right info, where are they situated? Coming from the resoviour or the engine itself?
I haven't mentioned anywhere it's a diesel, not sure if that makes any difference.
There is hot air coming through the vents, you'll have to explain to me about the pipes as I want to give you the right info, where are they situated? Coming from the resoviour or the engine itself?
I haven't mentioned anywhere it's a diesel, not sure if that makes any difference.
We often find that after somerthing has stood for a while and the battery isn't the strongest then a few weeks doing nothing can finish them off. We will often advise it needs a battery but if someone has just spent a reasonable amount of money they seem to think you are trying to rip them off for more work, after all it was starting fine when they dropped it off.
Why did the head gasket fail in the first place ? normally Kia's are reliable and i wouldn't expect one to fail.
Why did the head gasket fail in the first place ? normally Kia's are reliable and i wouldn't expect one to fail.
Coolant had been disappearing for a while, I put a seal in which seemed to fix the issue, then after a 25 minute journey, a temperature light came on the dash (my kia does not have a temperature gauge), it struggled to start after that and that's when I took it in to the garage.
I'm not doubting the garage has fixed the head gasket but would this solve the problems? Something caused the head gasket to break so i would expect them to fix the problem and the head gasket otherwise the problem will cause the head gasket to break again.
I'm not doubting the garage has fixed the head gasket but would this solve the problems? Something caused the head gasket to break so i would expect them to fix the problem and the head gasket otherwise the problem will cause the head gasket to break again.
Did you explain that to them, very often people never give the full story and feel garages are tryng to rip them off.
In reality what you should have done is had the original problem looked at rather than stick a bottle of k seal in, you may very well find that it has a leak elsewhere and the garage would not be looking for that if all you did was take it in with a suspected head gasket failure.
Does it smoke, drink anymore water etc.
In reality what you should have done is had the original problem looked at rather than stick a bottle of k seal in, you may very well find that it has a leak elsewhere and the garage would not be looking for that if all you did was take it in with a suspected head gasket failure.
Does it smoke, drink anymore water etc.
Sadly there are multiple issues here.
Firstly an owner who is clueless about cars and engines....and I'm not saying that as an insult, it's just a fact.
And then the reputation of so many garages for robbing customers and being clueless themselves. Which sadly far too often is deserved.
People are shouting battery....when there is been zero useful description of the poor starting, other than 2-3 secs ?
Does it turn over fast or slow ? How does it sound when cranking ? Does it start normally thereafter ? Any lights on the dash ? etc etc.
You mentioned that "it is not starting properly still"....and seemingly starting was an issue before. So has anything changed in that regard ? ( your perception of course )
Did you ask them to investigate this issue whilst doing the head gasket ? The two are very likely very separate faults. If you didnt ask them to sort that....there would be no expectation for it to change.
As for the work. Part of the problem here is you perceive any problems now, to be the exact same as before any work was done. Which is possible....but of course, it is also very possible there were other faults too, which could not be diagnosed until the HG issue was fixed. Or indeed these are very different faults now...just you think they are the same.
As for any talk of compressors...sounds like BS. A simple easy test for HG is a sniffer test at the header tank. Doesnt require a compressor or anything,
But as Ian says....not much point in accusing the garage of things, best to start a sensible conversation with them about any issues and hear their side of it. They may very well have done nothing wrong, and you just have a car with multiple issues. And one would hope the do in fact know more than you.....
But they could be another of the very many muppets out there, and really know jack s
t about what they are doing.
Sometimes fixing cars can be very difficult....and dealing with customers even harder because of their perceptions ( and often experience with bad garages too )
Firstly an owner who is clueless about cars and engines....and I'm not saying that as an insult, it's just a fact.
And then the reputation of so many garages for robbing customers and being clueless themselves. Which sadly far too often is deserved.
People are shouting battery....when there is been zero useful description of the poor starting, other than 2-3 secs ?
Does it turn over fast or slow ? How does it sound when cranking ? Does it start normally thereafter ? Any lights on the dash ? etc etc.
You mentioned that "it is not starting properly still"....and seemingly starting was an issue before. So has anything changed in that regard ? ( your perception of course )
Did you ask them to investigate this issue whilst doing the head gasket ? The two are very likely very separate faults. If you didnt ask them to sort that....there would be no expectation for it to change.
As for the work. Part of the problem here is you perceive any problems now, to be the exact same as before any work was done. Which is possible....but of course, it is also very possible there were other faults too, which could not be diagnosed until the HG issue was fixed. Or indeed these are very different faults now...just you think they are the same.
As for any talk of compressors...sounds like BS. A simple easy test for HG is a sniffer test at the header tank. Doesnt require a compressor or anything,
But as Ian says....not much point in accusing the garage of things, best to start a sensible conversation with them about any issues and hear their side of it. They may very well have done nothing wrong, and you just have a car with multiple issues. And one would hope the do in fact know more than you.....
But they could be another of the very many muppets out there, and really know jack s
t about what they are doing.Sometimes fixing cars can be very difficult....and dealing with customers even harder because of their perceptions ( and often experience with bad garages too )
Edited by stevieturbo on Sunday 14th June 15:50
When I took it into the garage I explained everything, the coolant disappearing, the sealant, the temperature, so they had all the information I had to give. Maybe it's me being naive but something breaks a head gasket so surely they would know to check what it was before they repaired it.
The starting of the car is it turns over normal, but instead of instant like it used to, it takes longer, so there is no different sound or anything like that, it's normal but takes longer. I have drove it perhaps 5 times in 2 days and each time I checked the coolant resoviour after the engine has cooled and it has got lower.
As for garages being untrustworthy, this is my third garage in 12 months as the first wanted to do work it had done previously 6 months earlier and when I questioned it, they stated they didn't look properly and it may have just been some oil or grease then. The second garage was the first one to tell me it was a head gasket, they quoted me £2k but said they don't do head gaskets and then offered to buy my car off me for a couple of hundred so they could use it for training, it could be innocent but just something wasn't right with that.
The car is going back into the garage tomorrow first thing, I'm not happy but I will be amicable because shouting will get me nowhere but I just feel they had the history of issues and haven't looked at them, just charged me a lot of money for the work to repair something that is going to break again. They told me that after the head gasket was sorted that the car would be fine so why say that and give me back a broken car?
The starting of the car is it turns over normal, but instead of instant like it used to, it takes longer, so there is no different sound or anything like that, it's normal but takes longer. I have drove it perhaps 5 times in 2 days and each time I checked the coolant resoviour after the engine has cooled and it has got lower.
As for garages being untrustworthy, this is my third garage in 12 months as the first wanted to do work it had done previously 6 months earlier and when I questioned it, they stated they didn't look properly and it may have just been some oil or grease then. The second garage was the first one to tell me it was a head gasket, they quoted me £2k but said they don't do head gaskets and then offered to buy my car off me for a couple of hundred so they could use it for training, it could be innocent but just something wasn't right with that.
The car is going back into the garage tomorrow first thing, I'm not happy but I will be amicable because shouting will get me nowhere but I just feel they had the history of issues and haven't looked at them, just charged me a lot of money for the work to repair something that is going to break again. They told me that after the head gasket was sorted that the car would be fine so why say that and give me back a broken car?
To be honest OP, you do sound a bit of a mare. A Head Gasket is a big job, so they have to charge 'a lot of money' to repair. There doesn't actually sound much wrong with the car other than the water level dropping, and it taking 2 or 3 seconds to start. They may be related, or they may not. Or it might be there is a small coolant leak on a rubber hose. That happens, and is not beyond the normal run of the mill teething issues after such a big job. And it might be because the fule system has been apart, there is a small amount of air in the diesel. This again is not beyond the normal.
My advice as ever would be to get off the ' I'm not happy' horse, and go and have a sensible chat. You're coming across as a bit on the edge, and ready to burst into shouting if the garage says or does something you disagree with.
Chill out and be sensible - see what they have to say tomorrow.
My advice as ever would be to get off the ' I'm not happy' horse, and go and have a sensible chat. You're coming across as a bit on the edge, and ready to burst into shouting if the garage says or does something you disagree with.
Chill out and be sensible - see what they have to say tomorrow.
I have already said I'm going to have chat tomorrow and I dont think you would be happy if you had spent £1200 and the car was given back to you how you gave it to them.
Water dropping may not sound like a problem to you but it is the very problem that was the start of all this and therefore concerns me and I think it would concern you too.
You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm entitled to mine and mine is that when someone says they will give you something back in perfect working order, that is exactly what I should receive
Water dropping may not sound like a problem to you but it is the very problem that was the start of all this and therefore concerns me and I think it would concern you too.
You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm entitled to mine and mine is that when someone says they will give you something back in perfect working order, that is exactly what I should receive
LimSlip said:
Mykel12 said:
after a problem with overheating, it would not start properly,
How badly did you overheat it?They checked the pistons when it was skimmed and all was fine, I had told the garage to check to see if there was any damage due to the overheating and they didnt report anything back.
Coolant level can drop alarmingly after a head gasket change. It can take quite a few miles of driving with the thermostat open/up to temperature before the level settles and you can do an accurate top up. After that the the level should be fairly constant.
I'd suggest driving for 20 miles or so whilst monitoring the coolant level. Let the engine cool and top it up. Do another drive and check levels.
If there are battery issues this may charge the battery up or a charger could. I think you're suggesting cranking speeds haven't changed just takes a little longer to start? That's a change but may not be a battery fault, certainly doesn't sound like a real issue. I'd monitor that.
As the garage to pressure test the coolant and do a sniff test for combustion gasses. You may have a leak elsewhere.
I'd suggest driving for 20 miles or so whilst monitoring the coolant level. Let the engine cool and top it up. Do another drive and check levels.
If there are battery issues this may charge the battery up or a charger could. I think you're suggesting cranking speeds haven't changed just takes a little longer to start? That's a change but may not be a battery fault, certainly doesn't sound like a real issue. I'd monitor that.
As the garage to pressure test the coolant and do a sniff test for combustion gasses. You may have a leak elsewhere.
Mykel12 said:
When I took it into the garage I explained everything, the coolant disappearing, the sealant, the temperature, so they had all the information I had to give. Maybe it's me being naive but something breaks a head gasket so surely they would know to check what it was before they repaired it.
The starting of the car is it turns over normal, but instead of instant like it used to, it takes longer, so there is no different sound or anything like that, it's normal but takes longer. I have drove it perhaps 5 times in 2 days and each time I checked the coolant resoviour after the engine has cooled and it has got lower.
As for garages being untrustworthy, this is my third garage in 12 months as the first wanted to do work it had done previously 6 months earlier and when I questioned it, they stated they didn't look properly and it may have just been some oil or grease then. The second garage was the first one to tell me it was a head gasket, they quoted me £2k but said they don't do head gaskets and then offered to buy my car off me for a couple of hundred so they could use it for training, it could be innocent but just something wasn't right with that.
The car is going back into the garage tomorrow first thing, I'm not happy but I will be amicable because shouting will get me nowhere but I just feel they had the history of issues and haven't looked at them, just charged me a lot of money for the work to repair something that is going to break again. They told me that after the head gasket was sorted that the car would be fine so why say that and give me back a broken car?
In terms of repairs and cars....yes you are being naive. As already said, very often things are not as simple as black and white. Of course none of this is helped by the fact you have had bad experiences with garages, including the one offering to buy the car from you. Although that may have been a genuine offer, and may have been an easy route out for you.The starting of the car is it turns over normal, but instead of instant like it used to, it takes longer, so there is no different sound or anything like that, it's normal but takes longer. I have drove it perhaps 5 times in 2 days and each time I checked the coolant resoviour after the engine has cooled and it has got lower.
As for garages being untrustworthy, this is my third garage in 12 months as the first wanted to do work it had done previously 6 months earlier and when I questioned it, they stated they didn't look properly and it may have just been some oil or grease then. The second garage was the first one to tell me it was a head gasket, they quoted me £2k but said they don't do head gaskets and then offered to buy my car off me for a couple of hundred so they could use it for training, it could be innocent but just something wasn't right with that.
The car is going back into the garage tomorrow first thing, I'm not happy but I will be amicable because shouting will get me nowhere but I just feel they had the history of issues and haven't looked at them, just charged me a lot of money for the work to repair something that is going to break again. They told me that after the head gasket was sorted that the car would be fine so why say that and give me back a broken car?
Although a bit bizarre for them to diagnose a head gasket...then say they don't do head gaskets...yet they want to buy it from you to train with....which seems odd if they dont' do head gaskets to need to train anyone on a car with a head gasket issue. lol.
As for charging a lot of money...this does irk me. If you knew the overheads and cost of equipment etc in a legit workshop.....the rates most garages charge is far too low. However....that only applies to good garages. When there are about 100x as many cowboys out there, that all goes out the window.
And again as already said.....you are saying the problems are exactly the same, which may or may not be correct, just your perception.. Which can be where many problems lie.
Perception and reality are not always the same.
Hopefully it can be worked out, but it does sound like a nightmare for both parties here.
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