Lotus commits to a future of all-electric sports cars
Discussion
Apparently, Lotus has seen the battery EV light.
Quote from the CEO:
“BEV is really well suited to sports cars – the torque characteristics, the weight distribution, design and flexibility of dynamics. For me it all leads to BEV as the ultimate technology for sports cars,”
Personally, I believe things can only get better. The development curve of dino juice burning tech has pretty much flattened and the curve for EV tech is just starting to ascend sharply. I predict extremely interesting times ahead.
Quote from the CEO:
“BEV is really well suited to sports cars – the torque characteristics, the weight distribution, design and flexibility of dynamics. For me it all leads to BEV as the ultimate technology for sports cars,”
Personally, I believe things can only get better. The development curve of dino juice burning tech has pretty much flattened and the curve for EV tech is just starting to ascend sharply. I predict extremely interesting times ahead.
Seems like they learnt nothing after the whole Swizz Beatz fiasco 15 years ago.
Lotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
Lotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
Imagine, in five years or so, a fully electric Lotus that'll be quicker round any track than any previous Lotus. It may be heavier than you're used to, but it'll be better all round and won't cost an awful lot more than Lotuses that go brmm-brmmm - maybe even less. Do you really believe people will continue to prefer slower cars that are noisy, polluting, smelly, need to be filled with expensive chemicals that are burned with 30% efficiency, which prop up questionable regimes?
I know cars are an emotional thing for many people, but surely, there's a limit to irrationally hanging on to old, dirty, wasteful and expensive tech. Even when it comes to track cars.
I know cars are an emotional thing for many people, but surely, there's a limit to irrationally hanging on to old, dirty, wasteful and expensive tech. Even when it comes to track cars.
untakenname said:
Seems like they learnt nothing after the whole Swizz Beatz fiasco 15 years ago.
Lotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
It wont be long before there is no choice, so best to be ahead of the curve IMOLotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
Whilst suddenly becoming an convert to Electomobility is not entirely suprising given the way the world is going (see note) you have to remember there is one big, unknown development, that would re-write all the rules about EV's namely, battery energy density!
Today, we think of EV's as "big and heavy" simply because the battery specific energy density is relatively poor compared to a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.eg
Gasoline = 46 MJ/kg,
Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
However, we are nowhere near the fundamental physical limits of a chemical battery in terms of energy density, which sits, depending on exact chemistry, at around 10 MJ/kg.
This means that theoretically, we could reduced the size and weight of our battery packs by up to 10 times, if we knew how! Today, nobody has a viable volume capable production cell anywhere near those theoretical limits, but it is important to understand that there is nothing fundamentally stopping us from developing such a cell!
Lets consider, for example, what a 300 mile range Tesla Model 3 would be like with a trippling of energy density:
2020 TM3 = 1,730 kg with 75kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of arpound 500kg
Revised TM3 = 1,400 kg with 75 kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of around 170 kg
Now scale that down to a Lotus, and you can see that as batteries improve then EV sports cars become more and more viable. In fact, i'd suggest that with battery masses of around 175kg, the overall powertrain mass of a 400bhp EV would be on parity, or slightly less, than that of a conventional ICE powered 400 bhp sports car! Suddenly, that new Exige doesn't look so bad as an EV right??
And of course, as the battery evolves the rest of the vehicle doesn't need to change! So your car matures as your battery does. Unilke with an ICE you don't need to rip everything up to install some new wizzo engine and gearbox, with complex support systems like intercooling, exhausts, fuel pumps, turbo's etc, you just put in a different amount of battery into your battery compartment.
So with that in mind, let me ask, "does Lotus embracing the eRevolution look such a bad idea"? :-)
(EVs are the future for mass mobility, in the same way that we don't use steam traction engines any more, however, there are people who do drive STE's for pure fun, and that shouldn't be fogotten! The problem is of course that those few individuals cannot support a large company on their backs. This is where "continuous growth" and capitalism fall down (or allow and opening to appear to be exploited by new entities, depending on your point of view)
Today, we think of EV's as "big and heavy" simply because the battery specific energy density is relatively poor compared to a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.eg
Gasoline = 46 MJ/kg,
Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
However, we are nowhere near the fundamental physical limits of a chemical battery in terms of energy density, which sits, depending on exact chemistry, at around 10 MJ/kg.
This means that theoretically, we could reduced the size and weight of our battery packs by up to 10 times, if we knew how! Today, nobody has a viable volume capable production cell anywhere near those theoretical limits, but it is important to understand that there is nothing fundamentally stopping us from developing such a cell!
Lets consider, for example, what a 300 mile range Tesla Model 3 would be like with a trippling of energy density:
2020 TM3 = 1,730 kg with 75kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of arpound 500kg
Revised TM3 = 1,400 kg with 75 kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of around 170 kg
Now scale that down to a Lotus, and you can see that as batteries improve then EV sports cars become more and more viable. In fact, i'd suggest that with battery masses of around 175kg, the overall powertrain mass of a 400bhp EV would be on parity, or slightly less, than that of a conventional ICE powered 400 bhp sports car! Suddenly, that new Exige doesn't look so bad as an EV right??
And of course, as the battery evolves the rest of the vehicle doesn't need to change! So your car matures as your battery does. Unilke with an ICE you don't need to rip everything up to install some new wizzo engine and gearbox, with complex support systems like intercooling, exhausts, fuel pumps, turbo's etc, you just put in a different amount of battery into your battery compartment.
So with that in mind, let me ask, "does Lotus embracing the eRevolution look such a bad idea"? :-)
(EVs are the future for mass mobility, in the same way that we don't use steam traction engines any more, however, there are people who do drive STE's for pure fun, and that shouldn't be fogotten! The problem is of course that those few individuals cannot support a large company on their backs. This is where "continuous growth" and capitalism fall down (or allow and opening to appear to be exploited by new entities, depending on your point of view)
blueg33 said:
It wont be long before there is no choice, so best to be ahead of the curve IMO
I think that's the key thing. Whether we like it or not internal combustion seems to be, for a combination of environmental and political reasons, coming to its end in automotive applications. The car companies which thrive going forwards will be those who manage to make the test of electric propulsion and that means getting as much early experience of them as possible.Lotus are lucky in a way in that at a time when they suddenly have a huge cash injection, they don't really have much historical baggage (at least in terms of IP investment) tying them to internal combustion.
Max_Torque said:
Gasoline = 46 MJ/kg,
Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
That's also a slightly misleading figure because EVs are about 90% efficient at converting on-board chemical energy to kinetic energy; ICE performance cars in normal road use are lucky to average 15% efficient. So in terms of the energy which actually goes to pushing a performance car along at the duty cycles typically associated with road driving it's more like:Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
Li-Ion = 0.8MJ/kg
Petrol = 7MG/kg
Still a big difference, but not as big.
untakenname said:
Seems like they learnt nothing after the whole Swizz Beatz fiasco 15 years ago.
Lotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
I am tempted to think you're just trolling however... Lotus are meant to be lightweight and nimble and provide feedback/driving pleasure plus the majority aren't daily drivers so this would just completely kill the demand if they did go electric only.
Would also require every track to upgrade its infrastructure massively to provide enough power for trackdays or motorsport when at the end (or partway through) every session you have dozens of cars needing to recharge at the same time.
Do Lotus ever do any market research into their clientele, do they even want electric cars?
They have an owner with massive financial clout who is investing heavily in the company, hundreds of millions. This owner has pushed Volvo and even the tiny London taxi company to great success. Lotus has access to all the Volvo tech and the leanings from both of them on EVs. This is nothing, nothing at all, like before. You need to do a bit of research...
Lotus's mantra of 'Add lightness' is from decades ago and applied mostly to race cars. Most consumers don't care about lightness, they want performance and quality and gadgets. There's no point telling people what they should want if it isn't what they want. Lightweight sports cars are fine for a few niche petrolheads but that's really all.
Tracks will have to upgrade their power supplies but there are no 'massive infrastructure changes' but that's not Lotus's problem.
I am sure Lotus do a lot of research but you'd have to be blind not to see that EVs are coming on fast and without one you'll be dead in the water as a manufacturer in the end.
I'm a big fan of Lotus and have owned 2 but I'd hate to see them left behind by your type of thinking. That's the past, this is about the future.
Max_Torque said:
Whilst suddenly becoming an convert to Electomobility is not entirely suprising given the way the world is going (see note) you have to remember there is one big, unknown development, that would re-write all the rules about EV's namely, battery energy density!
Today, we think of EV's as "big and heavy" simply because the battery specific energy density is relatively poor compared to a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.eg
Gasoline = 46 MJ/kg,
Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
However, we are nowhere near the fundamental physical limits of a chemical battery in terms of energy density, which sits, depending on exact chemistry, at around 10 MJ/kg.
This means that theoretically, we could reduced the size and weight of our battery packs by up to 10 times, if we knew how! Today, nobody has a viable volume capable production cell anywhere near those theoretical limits, but it is important to understand that there is nothing fundamentally stopping us from developing such a cell!
Lets consider, for example, what a 300 mile range Tesla Model 3 would be like with a trippling of energy density:
2020 TM3 = 1,730 kg with 75kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of arpound 500kg
Revised TM3 = 1,400 kg with 75 kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of around 170 kg
Now scale that down to a Lotus, and you can see that as batteries improve then EV sports cars become more and more viable. In fact, i'd suggest that with battery masses of around 175kg, the overall powertrain mass of a 400bhp EV would be on parity, or slightly less, than that of a conventional ICE powered 400 bhp sports car! Suddenly, that new Exige doesn't look so bad as an EV right??
And of course, as the battery evolves the rest of the vehicle doesn't need to change! So your car matures as your battery does. Unilke with an ICE you don't need to rip everything up to install some new wizzo engine and gearbox, with complex support systems like intercooling, exhausts, fuel pumps, turbo's etc, you just put in a different amount of battery into your battery compartment.
So with that in mind, let me ask, "does Lotus embracing the eRevolution look such a bad idea"? :-)
(EVs are the future for mass mobility, in the same way that we don't use steam traction engines any more, however, there are people who do drive STE's for pure fun, and that shouldn't be fogotten! The problem is of course that those few individuals cannot support a large company on their backs. This is where "continuous growth" and capitalism fall down (or allow and opening to appear to be exploited by new entities, depending on your point of view)
But when will we actually get a battery breakthrough? There seams to be nothing on the horizon, a £1000 phone still has a £10 battery.Today, we think of EV's as "big and heavy" simply because the battery specific energy density is relatively poor compared to a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.eg
Gasoline = 46 MJ/kg,
Lithium Ion battery (raw cell) = 0.8 MJ/kg
However, we are nowhere near the fundamental physical limits of a chemical battery in terms of energy density, which sits, depending on exact chemistry, at around 10 MJ/kg.
This means that theoretically, we could reduced the size and weight of our battery packs by up to 10 times, if we knew how! Today, nobody has a viable volume capable production cell anywhere near those theoretical limits, but it is important to understand that there is nothing fundamentally stopping us from developing such a cell!
Lets consider, for example, what a 300 mile range Tesla Model 3 would be like with a trippling of energy density:
2020 TM3 = 1,730 kg with 75kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of arpound 500kg
Revised TM3 = 1,400 kg with 75 kWh of energy from a battery with a mass of around 170 kg
Now scale that down to a Lotus, and you can see that as batteries improve then EV sports cars become more and more viable. In fact, i'd suggest that with battery masses of around 175kg, the overall powertrain mass of a 400bhp EV would be on parity, or slightly less, than that of a conventional ICE powered 400 bhp sports car! Suddenly, that new Exige doesn't look so bad as an EV right??
And of course, as the battery evolves the rest of the vehicle doesn't need to change! So your car matures as your battery does. Unilke with an ICE you don't need to rip everything up to install some new wizzo engine and gearbox, with complex support systems like intercooling, exhausts, fuel pumps, turbo's etc, you just put in a different amount of battery into your battery compartment.
So with that in mind, let me ask, "does Lotus embracing the eRevolution look such a bad idea"? :-)
(EVs are the future for mass mobility, in the same way that we don't use steam traction engines any more, however, there are people who do drive STE's for pure fun, and that shouldn't be fogotten! The problem is of course that those few individuals cannot support a large company on their backs. This is where "continuous growth" and capitalism fall down (or allow and opening to appear to be exploited by new entities, depending on your point of view)
granada203028 said:
But when will we actually get a battery breakthrough? There seams to be nothing on the horizon, a £1000 phone still has a £10 battery.
I'm interested in the developments of Sodium-air battery tech.While the larger size of the Sodium ions means a lower energy density, the recharge rate is signficantly higher, and the cell weight is lower.
So it could end up with a 400 mile range from a battery that weighs less than the Li-ion we currently have, and recharges in a fraction of the time
https://phys.org/news/2013-01-sodium-air-battery-r...
feef said:
I'm interested in the developments of Sodium-air battery tech.
While the larger size of the Sodium ions means a lower energy density, the recharge rate is signficantly higher, and the cell weight is lower.
So it could end up with a 400 mile range from a battery that weighs less than the Li-ion we currently have, and recharges in a fraction of the time
https://phys.org/news/2013-01-sodium-air-battery-r...
Yes an area of intensive research, many candidates, but nothing is emerging?While the larger size of the Sodium ions means a lower energy density, the recharge rate is signficantly higher, and the cell weight is lower.
So it could end up with a 400 mile range from a battery that weighs less than the Li-ion we currently have, and recharges in a fraction of the time
https://phys.org/news/2013-01-sodium-air-battery-r...
Over the last 10 years we have gone from the Leaf 24kWh to the Niro 64kWh, through detail engineering, acceptance of higher weight and lower cost.
I bet over the next 10 years nothing like the same progress is made.
kambites said:
The charging limit on EVs isn't the rate at which the cells will take charge today...
That's right and we are likely to see multiple stall charging at moderate rates rather than a few at high rate. Damages the batteries anyway. Connectivity gives us plenty to do while we wait, lots of opportunity to be sold stuff we don't need or want. Grid connection is always less than the number of stalls x max rate. Just sensible sizing for average use. 350kW charging is just a headline grabber.granada203028 said:
But when will we actually get a battery breakthrough? There seams to be nothing on the horizon, a £1000 phone still has a £10 battery.
Phone batteries are not car batteries, yet have improved massively over time too. I can charge my phone now in about 30-40min and it lasts 2 days of serious use for a 7inch phone with 8 cores and more processing power etc and it weighs next to nothing etc.Now for cars there is already a huge range of battery type and chemistry in use today, and many more in development
No reason Lotus cant make a success of this, the alternative is become even more of an irrelevance than they are now
RobDickinson said:
Phone batteries are not car batteries, yet have improved massively over time too. I can charge my phone now in about 30-40min and it lasts 2 days of serious use for a 7inch phone with 8 cores and more processing power etc and it weighs next to nothing etc.
Now for cars there is already a huge range of battery type and chemistry in use today, and many more in development
No reason Lotus cant make a success of this, the alternative is become even more of an irrelevance than they are now
The batteries have not changed much they really haven't. Sure your phone does much more with the limited energy.Now for cars there is already a huge range of battery type and chemistry in use today, and many more in development
No reason Lotus cant make a success of this, the alternative is become even more of an irrelevance than they are now
The chemistries are all variations on basic lithium ion cobalt oxide with other detail formulation. Energy density has gone from 150Wh/Kg in the mid nineties to 250Wh/Kg now and we are along way on the curve of diminishing returns.
We must not confuse advances in computing power, coms and displays and assume the same will happen with batteries.
If something is to be in wide spread use in cars in 10 years time it needs to be emerging now. And hi end phones would be a typical early application on a much smaller scale.
granada203028 said:
I bet over the next 10 years nothing like the same progress is made.
That's a bet i'd take! IMO, there is massive, and i mean massive (Billions of $$$) investment into all things battery. Today, EV's have matured over the last few years not at a cell level but at a pack level, ie the manufacturers learning how to put together the best pack, but from the cells currently available in volume, which is limiting them to basic cell tech, and really two manufacturers.Over the next 5 years, huge demand is going to grow the industry, and other cell manufacturers will jump into the fray, and some of the billions spent in the lab is going to start to play a part in increasing specific density!
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