Will EV's be more or less reliable than ICE ?
Discussion
Based on the German marque reliability thread, got me thinking that it will be interesting to see how EV reliability stacks up as time goes on.
An EV has a lot of electronics but the electric motor has one moving part, unlike a piston engine that has lots, not that its the moving bits that usually fail. Its the bits that make it more efficient, faster and pump out less noxious fumes that give the trouble.
On the plus side,
Only has a very simple gearbox/diff (ok, some have two, but those are the higher end ones)
No clutch
Brakes are given an easier job due to regeneration
No Exhaust system
No engine cooling system
No Oil pump/system
No Cam belt/chain
No turbo(s)/intercooler
No injectors
No Lambda sensors
No Cat
No DPF/PPF
No MAF/MAP Sensors
No jumble of breather/vacuum pipes
Less heat generated (I think ?) and doesnt have loads of boiling water and oil around, so less prone to leaks. Appreciate they still have HVAC and battery heating/cooling stuff.
On the minus side,
It has a bloody massive battery that will degrade over time.
Tend to be heavier (currently)
Hard on tyres/suspension/drivetrain due to the torque/additional weight but guess specced appropriately.
The normal electronics (dash, blower motor, stereo, lights etc) should be no better or worse than an ICE car, but are the power electronics typically reliable ?
Will possibly have lots of fancy integrations with phones and stuff, but so do ICE cars nowadays.
I think that they have the potential to be much more reliable due to being simpler, except for the battery aspect. But not experience of them myself, and its still early days yet, anyone had stuff go wrong with theirs ?
An EV has a lot of electronics but the electric motor has one moving part, unlike a piston engine that has lots, not that its the moving bits that usually fail. Its the bits that make it more efficient, faster and pump out less noxious fumes that give the trouble.
On the plus side,
Only has a very simple gearbox/diff (ok, some have two, but those are the higher end ones)
No clutch
Brakes are given an easier job due to regeneration
No Exhaust system
No engine cooling system
No Oil pump/system
No Cam belt/chain
No turbo(s)/intercooler
No injectors
No Lambda sensors
No Cat
No DPF/PPF
No MAF/MAP Sensors
No jumble of breather/vacuum pipes
Less heat generated (I think ?) and doesnt have loads of boiling water and oil around, so less prone to leaks. Appreciate they still have HVAC and battery heating/cooling stuff.
On the minus side,
It has a bloody massive battery that will degrade over time.
Tend to be heavier (currently)
Hard on tyres/suspension/drivetrain due to the torque/additional weight but guess specced appropriately.
The normal electronics (dash, blower motor, stereo, lights etc) should be no better or worse than an ICE car, but are the power electronics typically reliable ?
Will possibly have lots of fancy integrations with phones and stuff, but so do ICE cars nowadays.
I think that they have the potential to be much more reliable due to being simpler, except for the battery aspect. But not experience of them myself, and its still early days yet, anyone had stuff go wrong with theirs ?
I think they'll be different.
In the long run I think they'll be significantly less likely to actually break down than an ICE powertrain and require less (often no) servicing, but they'll degrade with age and use in a way that ICE powertrains don't. That wont make them unusable but will essentially slightly lower their specification over time.
In terms of other components, I think it's a mixed bag. As you say brakes should last longer (because regenerative braking means they get much less use) but the greater weight is bound to wear out suspension components faster.
All in all, I think I'd expect the total servicing/repair costs on an EV to be lower than an equivalent ICE over its lifetime.
In the long run I think they'll be significantly less likely to actually break down than an ICE powertrain and require less (often no) servicing, but they'll degrade with age and use in a way that ICE powertrains don't. That wont make them unusable but will essentially slightly lower their specification over time.
In terms of other components, I think it's a mixed bag. As you say brakes should last longer (because regenerative braking means they get much less use) but the greater weight is bound to wear out suspension components faster.
All in all, I think I'd expect the total servicing/repair costs on an EV to be lower than an equivalent ICE over its lifetime.
Edited by kambites on Monday 22 June 11:13
In my experience I can only think of one occasion when I've had reliability issues with a ICE engine and that was on a particularly old shed of a car.
The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
ICE vehicles are much more complex in terms of powertrain but despite this they are now incredibly reliable. EVs will be reliable simply due to their simplicity. As said, its probably the std parts such as electrical software, door seals, windows etc that may be the largest challenge buyt again, these are mostly very reliable.
Engines will wear and batteries will degrade - both at a very low level so prob not much to choose from there.
Engines will wear and batteries will degrade - both at a very low level so prob not much to choose from there.
kambites said:
I think they'll be different.
In the long run I think they'll be significantly less likely to actually break down than an ICE powertrain and require less (often no) servicing, but they'll degrade with age and use in a way that ICE powertrains don't. That wont make them unusable but will essentially slightly lower their specification over time.
In terms of other components, I think it's a mixed bag. As you say brakes should last longer (because regenerative braking means they get much less use) but the greater weight is bound to wear out suspension components faster.
All in all, I think I'd expect the total servicing/repair costs on an EV to be lower than an equivalent ICE over its lifetime.
Is it me or is the BMW 3 series not a million miles apart from the Model 3 when it comes to weight?In the long run I think they'll be significantly less likely to actually break down than an ICE powertrain and require less (often no) servicing, but they'll degrade with age and use in a way that ICE powertrains don't. That wont make them unusable but will essentially slightly lower their specification over time.
In terms of other components, I think it's a mixed bag. As you say brakes should last longer (because regenerative braking means they get much less use) but the greater weight is bound to wear out suspension components faster.
All in all, I think I'd expect the total servicing/repair costs on an EV to be lower than an equivalent ICE over its lifetime.
Edited by kambites on Monday 22 June 11:13
J4CKO said:
On the minus side,
Hard on tyres/suspension/drivetrain due to the torque/additional weight but guess specced appropriately.
I'm certainly not finding that so far on our M3P. Tyres are barely worn after 5k miles of enthusiastic use which I believe i testament to how well managed and linear the power delivery is in comparison to the far spikier delivery of a similarly powerful (500bhp/480 lb/ft) AWD ICE car.Hard on tyres/suspension/drivetrain due to the torque/additional weight but guess specced appropriately.
Suspension quite possible but drivetrain? Other than a pair of drive shafts coming from the motors at each end what is there to wear out?
jamoor said:
Is it me or is the BMW 3 series not a million miles apart from the Model 3 when it comes to weight?
1675kg for a 340i X-Drive v 1850kg for the Model 3 Performance according to manufacturers figures so a chunk lighter (but assume dry weight)Audi RS4 is 1750kg and C63S 1850kg so very much in the ball park for similarly sized and powerful ICE cars.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 22 June 15:12
Jamescrs said:
In my experience I can only think of one occasion when I've had reliability issues with a ICE engine and that was on a particularly old shed of a car.
The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
Sure, but none of those items are considered consumables, but there are alot of powertrain related components that are considered consumables on an ICE car.The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
If a lambda sensor, camshaft sensor, exhaust, timing belt, clutch, radiator, thermostat, accessory belt or many more parts failed on an ICE car we would just replace them and accept that its a consumable. - None of these exist on an electric car and they have the potential to leave you stranded.
There are of course other parts like the parts you mentioned and stuff like Gearboxes, Intake manifold, the entire engine block and various electronics that are meant to last the life of the car and if they went wrong you would count yourself extremely unlucky.
for powertrain faults I'd have thought EV's would have to be more reliable, surely?
I'm also convinced that the battery packs will be modular and fairly easily removable in the not too distant future. They can already refurbish battery packs, so I can see it being an 8 year/100k mile service item to have the battery pack swapped, with the old one getting refurbed and put back into circulation just like they currently do for alternators and similar.
I'm also convinced that the battery packs will be modular and fairly easily removable in the not too distant future. They can already refurbish battery packs, so I can see it being an 8 year/100k mile service item to have the battery pack swapped, with the old one getting refurbed and put back into circulation just like they currently do for alternators and similar.
jamoor said:
Jamescrs said:
In my experience I can only think of one occasion when I've had reliability issues with a ICE engine and that was on a particularly old shed of a car.
The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
Sure, but none of those items are considered consumables, but there are alot of powertrain related components that are considered consumables on an ICE car.The majority of issues I seem to have with cars seem to be other things, for example most recently I've had issues on three of the door locks on my Volvo estate within 6 months causing a bill of around £1200.
Failure on my previous BMW 320 estate was electrical issues with wiring failing between the car body and boot hatch.
You get the idea, I don't think what power plant runs the car will have any bearing on these type of failures.
If a lambda sensor, camshaft sensor, exhaust, timing belt, clutch, radiator, thermostat, accessory belt or many more parts failed on an ICE car we would just replace them and accept that its a consumable. - None of these exist on an electric car and they have the potential to leave you stranded.
There are of course other parts like the parts you mentioned and stuff like Gearboxes, Intake manifold, the entire engine block and various electronics that are meant to last the life of the car and if they went wrong you would count yourself extremely unlucky.
Clutches, gearboxes, wiring harnesses and fuel injection are all areas I've had problems with on previous German marque ICE cars, all of them either new or nearly new. Just look at the list of issues BMW/Porsche have had with their engines over the years (IMS bearings, rod bearings etc.) that require complete rebuilds at limited age and mileage.
aestetix1 said:
Like fossil cars it depends on the EV. The performance ones like Teslas have a lot more problems and degrade quite fast, e.g. Tesla disables supercharging and limits power output after a while.
The normal ones will be much more reliable than ICE.
With Tesla that's due to how much DC/Supercharging is done and how often launch mode is used on certain models rather than a reliability issue?The normal ones will be much more reliable than ICE.
Jakg said:
Edinburger said:
I was told the Tesla Model S only has 21 moving parts, so to my mind that means less wear and tear and therefore less visits to the garage.
I don't believe that's true - the door lock, window & seat mechanism, HVAC system etc adds up to that alone. I suspect that's 21 moving parts in the drive-train, at best. The car as a whole will contain hundreds. Edinburger said:
I was told the Tesla Model S only has 21 moving parts, so to my mind that means less wear and tear and therefore less visits to the garage.
That would be 21 very poorly made parts then 
The model S is in the 15 least reliable car list according to car wow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CaP6aXruk
Jakg said:
Edinburger said:
I was told the Tesla Model S only has 21 moving parts, so to my mind that means less wear and tear and therefore less visits to the garage.
I don't believe that's true - the door lock, window & seat mechanism, HVAC system etc adds up to that alone.TheRainMaker said:
kambites said:
I love the way that a thread which is, by its very nature, as much about ICE cars as EVs gets moved to the "alternative fuels" section.
Yep should really be put back.Sometimes the moderation does seem a little bit too literal !
As a whole the drivetrains should be more reliable. Although I say that my battery pack went back to Tesla for 9 months but I think I’m very much an anomaly with that.
I think inthe future it will be software issues. At the moment my wifes model S has a black screen with an update bar every time she goes to drive it. Takes 15 mins to do a full reset to get it to start. This is since the latest update. It’s also very common when Tesla do a major update to get lots of quick updates after to fix all the stuff that doesn’t work right in the update.
Personally I don’t relish software running everything as I seem to have constant issues with technology at home and at work. My car being completely reliant doesn’t fill me with much hope.
Saying that software issues seem to bigger up quite a few ICE cars as well these days.
I think inthe future it will be software issues. At the moment my wifes model S has a black screen with an update bar every time she goes to drive it. Takes 15 mins to do a full reset to get it to start. This is since the latest update. It’s also very common when Tesla do a major update to get lots of quick updates after to fix all the stuff that doesn’t work right in the update.
Personally I don’t relish software running everything as I seem to have constant issues with technology at home and at work. My car being completely reliant doesn’t fill me with much hope.
Saying that software issues seem to bigger up quite a few ICE cars as well these days.
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