Discussion
Currently re-reading on F1 history (in case you're wondering Formula 1: The Autobiographyhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Formula-1-Autobiography-Gerald-Donaldson/dp/0297843087 a glorious coffee table book of great pictures and anecdotes)
Just wondering what are other's thoughts and assessments of Brooks.
My tuppence worth:
Massively under appreciated and perhaps underrated - by that I mean easy to point to Fangio, Moss and & Hawthorn as they were the halo drivers of that era.
Immensely talented and no wonder Enzo Ferrari was eager to sign him up. He made some sensational drives: 2nd in his first race at Monaco; winning 1958 German and Italian GPs with a come-from-behind victory in the latter.
Certainly one of the greatest drivers never to become WDC - certainly 1959 if he wasn't hit by Wolfgang Von Trips at Sebring. Consummate #2 driver but if it was not for having a selfish streak perhaps he could have been every bit as equal to Moss or at the very least not too far off the compatriot's pace, much akin to Rosberg to Hamilton pace wise and nor do I suggest Brooks should have adopted Rosberg's ruthless streak!
Just wondering what are other's thoughts and assessments of Brooks.
My tuppence worth:
Massively under appreciated and perhaps underrated - by that I mean easy to point to Fangio, Moss and & Hawthorn as they were the halo drivers of that era.
Immensely talented and no wonder Enzo Ferrari was eager to sign him up. He made some sensational drives: 2nd in his first race at Monaco; winning 1958 German and Italian GPs with a come-from-behind victory in the latter.
Certainly one of the greatest drivers never to become WDC - certainly 1959 if he wasn't hit by Wolfgang Von Trips at Sebring. Consummate #2 driver but if it was not for having a selfish streak perhaps he could have been every bit as equal to Moss or at the very least not too far off the compatriot's pace, much akin to Rosberg to Hamilton pace wise and nor do I suggest Brooks should have adopted Rosberg's ruthless streak!
His reputation preceded him when I became interested in the sport in the late 60s as a teenager. He was that rare thing in top line drivers of any era , now especially , in that he had an interest in and knowledge of life outside the paddock as well as a university education . And a profession too ,as a dentist of course .
I heard him being interviewed on the Beyond the Grid podcast; he is now an elderly man , but a lovely listen, and a real insight into the sport's past. So few Sixties' drivers are left , and to hear one from the Fifties was a privilege . And (dare I whisper it ? ) a far more engaging interviewee than Sir Stirling , whose trademark crumpet riff was already wearing bloody thin in the 80s...
I do find it depressing that so many F1 fans (as I don't call myself , more an enthusiast of the whole motorsport pantheon ) seem totally lacking in curiosity about the sport's history , as if anything pre Senna didn't count .
I've just read and reviewed (for speedreaders.info )both the Lauda biography( good , but should have been better) and Richard Williams' masterful book on Richard Seaman - what a story he had ... Money , romance, the ur Silver Arrows, glory , Nazis and death .
I heard him being interviewed on the Beyond the Grid podcast; he is now an elderly man , but a lovely listen, and a real insight into the sport's past. So few Sixties' drivers are left , and to hear one from the Fifties was a privilege . And (dare I whisper it ? ) a far more engaging interviewee than Sir Stirling , whose trademark crumpet riff was already wearing bloody thin in the 80s...
I do find it depressing that so many F1 fans (as I don't call myself , more an enthusiast of the whole motorsport pantheon ) seem totally lacking in curiosity about the sport's history , as if anything pre Senna didn't count .
I've just read and reviewed (for speedreaders.info )both the Lauda biography( good , but should have been better) and Richard Williams' masterful book on Richard Seaman - what a story he had ... Money , romance, the ur Silver Arrows, glory , Nazis and death .
coppice said:
I heard him being interviewed on the Beyond the Grid podcast; he is now an elderly man , but a lovely listen, and a real insight into the sport's past. So few Sixties' drivers are left , and to hear one from the Fifties was a privilege . And (dare I whisper it ? ) a far more engaging interviewee than Sir Stirling , whose trademark crumpet riff was already wearing bloody thin in the 80s...
This really.Brooks and Surtees to me were both better drivers than Moss.I think the only thing that sets all of them apart is when Moss stuck up for Hawthorn costing him the championship that year. The British love that sort of thing, and I think more than anything that's what cemented the perception of Moss to the public. And I would think that the circles he moved him also helped with that.
Brooks, I'll be honest, never heard of him growing up. And that's really because any time you saw anything about the 1950's/60's you only ever had Stirling Moss pop his head up. And as a kid you think "Oh, he must be the only one left". Then I hear about Brooks on the F1 podcast and I'm in awe of the bloke really.
entropy said:
Consummate #2 driver but if it was not for having a selfish streak perhaps he could have been every bit as equal to Moss or at the very least not too far off the compatriot's pace,
I don't think that reads like you wanted it to read but I know what you mean.TB was the first driver to win an international F1 race (1955 Syracuse GP) in a British car in the 'modern' era. The Connaughts were slow to arrive and he and his team mate learnt the track on Vespa scooters. Not only was it the first win for a British car, it was Brooks' first F1 win, not to mention the first time he'd even sat in a F1 car.
Good interview here:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Edited by Halmyre on Friday 26th June 19:55
I was no fan of Moss the man , but as a driver I'd argue he was in a different league to nearly all his peers . Surtees was a tough guy , and a great racer , but he was nowhere near Moss as a driver. Few were - of the ones I've seen I'd say that Senna, Prost , Stewart and Schumacher were in the same league . Hamilton ? Possibly, but I'd prefer to have seen him in crap cars now and again . Clark ? I never saw him race but he is right at , or very near the top of any list.
But 'best ' is academic really, and very subjective and ,anybody who raced for a living in that era and lived is a bloody hero to me , I have been lucky to interview a couple from then and it's been a huge privilege.
Some names are now forgotten by many F1 fans (or actually, never even been heard of by many ) but men like Vic Elford , Richard Attwood , Jackie Ickx are near gods in my house . But we've lost so many - Brise , Pace , Williamson , Pryce , De Angelis, Villeneuve, the achingly cool Revson and so on and that's just the guys I've watched trackside
But 'best ' is academic really, and very subjective and ,anybody who raced for a living in that era and lived is a bloody hero to me , I have been lucky to interview a couple from then and it's been a huge privilege.
Some names are now forgotten by many F1 fans (or actually, never even been heard of by many ) but men like Vic Elford , Richard Attwood , Jackie Ickx are near gods in my house . But we've lost so many - Brise , Pace , Williamson , Pryce , De Angelis, Villeneuve, the achingly cool Revson and so on and that's just the guys I've watched trackside
sgtBerbatov said:
Brooks and Surtees to me were both better drivers than Moss.
Why so? Could you elaborate further?coppice said:
I was no fan of Moss the man , but as a driver I'd argue he was in a different league to nearly all his peers . Surtees was a tough guy , and a great racer , but he was nowhere near Moss as a driver.
Agreed. Moss was on another level and Fangio, arguably, slightly higher. Often fond of saying how he could spot the pretty girls in the crowd says it all really: having that extra capacity when on the limit.
Surtees was a talent but I do wonder, maybe perhaps similarly with Jack Brabham, whether his no-nonsense attitude, sheer bloody-mindedness and prone to meddling politicking hampered to being up there with Clark and Gurney.
I'd argue that Brabham is underestimated as a driver , often being lauded solely for winning in his own car . People forget he won three championships , and won his last GP in his forties .
Surtees was a tough guy , but abrasive and confrontational . Undoubtedly a gifted driver too, ,but not as consistently good as Black Jack , let alone Clark, Hill or Stewart
Surtees was a tough guy , but abrasive and confrontational . Undoubtedly a gifted driver too, ,but not as consistently good as Black Jack , let alone Clark, Hill or Stewart
coppice said:
I'd argue that Brabham is underestimated as a driver , often being lauded solely for winning in his own car . People forget he won three championships , and won his last GP in his forties .
Surtees was a tough guy , but abrasive and confrontational . Undoubtedly a gifted driver too, ,but not as consistently good as Black Jack , let alone Clark, Hill or Stewart
Brabham was renowned not for being the fastest out there, he most certainly wasn't, but for being very difficult to pass as his placement of the car on the track earned him the reputation of driving the widest car out there. Why was he universally known as Black Jack as I’m not aware of any racial issues that might have been the reason in those days to earn him that epithet?Surtees was a tough guy , but abrasive and confrontational . Undoubtedly a gifted driver too, ,but not as consistently good as Black Jack , let alone Clark, Hill or Stewart
Smollet said:
Why was he universally known as Black Jack as I’m not aware of any racial issues that might have been the reason in those days to earn him that epithet?
https://www.formula1.com/en/drivers/hall-of-fame/J..."Always a man of few words - his nickname 'Black Jack' referred to both his dark hair and his propensity for maintaining a shadowy silence - he avoided small talk and was undemonstrative in the extreme."
FourWheelDrift said:
https://www.formula1.com/en/drivers/hall-of-fame/J...
"Always a man of few words - his nickname 'Black Jack' referred to both his dark hair and his propensity for maintaining a shadowy silence - he avoided small talk and was undemonstrative in the extreme."
Thanks. I knew he wasn’t Mr Chatty at the best of times. "Always a man of few words - his nickname 'Black Jack' referred to both his dark hair and his propensity for maintaining a shadowy silence - he avoided small talk and was undemonstrative in the extreme."
entropy said:
sgtBerbatov said:
Brooks and Surtees to me were both better drivers than Moss.
Why so? Could you elaborate further?Plus, Surtees won the world championship on 2 and 4 wheels. To me, someone multi disciplined like that is an incredible talent.
sgtBerbatov said:
I think, personally, Moss had more resources to make his career happen compared to Brooks and Surtees. Not to say Moss wasn't a good driver, but I don't think was a boy from a South Birmingham estate he'd have got the same chances as he did get. But that's just my feeling about it really.
Then, and is now more or less still is the case, you had to be privileged of background, backed by a wealthy benefactor or at least of middle class background let alone talent spotted to get through motorsport. Fangio's career and his contemporary Argentine peers owed a lot to the Peron government so would that preclude him from being an all time great?Moss got the best out of every car he drove and every team he was in regardless if it was a car his father brought, factory cars like Merc, privateer entrants Rob Walker - in the 1961 season with the 1.5L engine formula he won races in the underpowered Lotus Climax against the might of the sharknosed Ferraris.
Moss was a pioneer and way ahead of his time by having a manager.
Brooks announced himself in F1 by finishing second at his first race - at Monaco. When Brooks entered F1 Moss had quickly established himself as near equal to Fangio and deservedly earned being the default #1 at Vanwall.
However, the irony of your argument is that had Moss not chosen patriotism and romanticism he would have had a more deserving career written in the record books had he not chosen to race for British F1 teams.
sgtBerbatov said:
Plus, Surtees won the world championship on 2 and 4 wheels. To me, someone multi disciplined like that is an incredible talent.
How much did romanticism of the heart went into forming that opinion?Certainly a great in motorsport but specifically F1?
entropy said:
sgtBerbatov said:
I think, personally, Moss had more resources to make his career happen compared to Brooks and Surtees. Not to say Moss wasn't a good driver, but I don't think was a boy from a South Birmingham estate he'd have got the same chances as he did get. But that's just my feeling about it really.
Then, and is now more or less still is the case, you had to be privileged of background, backed by a wealthy benefactor or at least of middle class background let alone talent spotted to get through motorsport. Fangio's career and his contemporary Argentine peers owed a lot to the Peron government so would that preclude him from being an all time great?Moss got the best out of every car he drove and every team he was in regardless if it was a car his father brought, factory cars like Merc, privateer entrants Rob Walker - in the 1961 season with the 1.5L engine formula he won races in the underpowered Lotus Climax against the might of the sharknosed Ferraris.
Moss was a pioneer and way ahead of his time by having a manager.
Brooks announced himself in F1 by finishing second at his first race - at Monaco. When Brooks entered F1 Moss had quickly established himself as near equal to Fangio and deservedly earned being the default #1 at Vanwall.
However, the irony of your argument is that had Moss not chosen patriotism and romanticism he would have had a more deserving career written in the record books had he not chosen to race for British F1 teams.
sgtBerbatov said:
Plus, Surtees won the world championship on 2 and 4 wheels. To me, someone multi disciplined like that is an incredible talent.
How much did romanticism of the heart went into forming that opinion?Certainly a great in motorsport but specifically F1?
Arguably, given the victory in 1957 with his Vanwall, he didn't win the race with the same car he started with due to it having mechanical issues. Ironically, it was Brooks' car that he used to finish.
There are so many drivers in that era that had the chance to win a WDC and never managed it for whatever reason. But I have always wondered whether what he did with Hawthorn, where he defended him meaning it would cost him the championship, enshrined his legend more so in the UK than the rest of the world. If we think about Schumacher shunting Hill and Jacques, I remember distinctly how he was vilified for that and rightly so. And to many, Schumacher isn't a great because he was such a cheat. Then we have Prost who, arguably, has been forgotten because other than his rivalry with Senna, he didn't do a fat lot really. I know I didn't hear about him until Schumacher equalled his championship record.
As for Surtees, I'm not a romantic. To me, Damon Hill is the best driver I've seen, but he's the driver I latched on to as a child. I look at Surtees' record, what he did, and I think from what he achieved he did more than Moss. Because I truly don't believe someone can be that great and not win something, in any discipline or sport.
SGt I would agree with the main point you make, he simply was not as good as Fangio so never won it, it is that simple. Historians get all misty eyed and I get that. But this is a results business and the big one was never one while the other bloke won it 5 times.
Maybe he was unlucky, he certainly was very choosy about what he drove at times, with good reason.
But for me Clark, Stewart, Prost, and to a lesser extent Lauda, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso are on pedestals.
I have seen Alonso do things in cars that make me wince, same as Schumacher did.
But to me there was no artistry, and there was with Clark, Stewart and Prost.
Maybe he was unlucky, he certainly was very choosy about what he drove at times, with good reason.
But for me Clark, Stewart, Prost, and to a lesser extent Lauda, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso are on pedestals.
I have seen Alonso do things in cars that make me wince, same as Schumacher did.
But to me there was no artistry, and there was with Clark, Stewart and Prost.
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