ABS and Griff 500
Discussion
Hi - I'm looking to buy a Griff 500 in the next couple of months. I’m going to fit the racelogic traction system and I’ve also toyed with the idea of adding ABS (as I know the car is very capable but my driving isn’t). Has anyone had any experience/success in fitting an ABS system? I assume an ABS system from a Sierra can be used as a starting point?
griffmod said:
Hi - I'm looking to buy a Griff 500 in the next couple of months. I’m going to fit the racelogic traction system and I’ve also toyed with the idea of adding ABS (as I know the car is very capable but my driving isn’t). Has anyone had any experience/success in fitting an ABS system? I assume an ABS system from a Sierra can be used as a starting point?
None that I know of. Check the insurance before you do anything that drastic. When cars first got ABS as an option, insurance companies rated ABS-equipped cars higher than those without (something to do with thinking the car would stop quicker and so driving faster). If you do this to a Griff, you may encounter similar prejudice along with the problem of insuring modifications - and moreover to the only means of stopping the thing. Good luck if you go ahead though.
Please don't take this the wrong way but it seems to me that you're looking at driver aids to possibly help compensate for a perceived lack of ability behind the wheel? If this is the case, I'd say you'd be much better off going on an advanced driving course where you could learn how to handle such a car and develop better awareness/braking techniques that'd negate the need for all that stuff!
Also, anything you do learn would be much cheaper than fitting the abs/traction control and you'd consequently be a much better driver as well.
All the best - Chris
Also, anything you do learn would be much cheaper than fitting the abs/traction control and you'd consequently be a much better driver as well.
All the best - Chris
Indeed. I was scared sh*tless when I bought my Chimaera 500 and explored RaceLogic TC etc. as an option.
However, I quickly realised that adjusting my driving style and abilities was a far cheaper, and far more satisfying, option than retro-fitting drivers aids.
Also, upgrading one's skills and abilities is a driver aid you can take from car to car for no extra cost.
However, I quickly realised that adjusting my driving style and abilities was a far cheaper, and far more satisfying, option than retro-fitting drivers aids.
Also, upgrading one's skills and abilities is a driver aid you can take from car to car for no extra cost.
FYI - I have seen a Griff with ABS. And yes it was from a Sierra. The front uprights can be changed for ABS Sierra ones, and the others fitted to the rear driveshafts.
The ABS on my own Sierra (4.8 RV8) has only ever cut in about twice in eight years.
If you do fit it, it will be expensive. Also remember to put in a disable switch to shut it off in snowy weather. The first time I had mine in the snow, it didn't slow down at all with the brakes on
The ABS on my own Sierra (4.8 RV8) has only ever cut in about twice in eight years.
If you do fit it, it will be expensive. Also remember to put in a disable switch to shut it off in snowy weather. The first time I had mine in the snow, it didn't slow down at all with the brakes on
Many thanks. I understand and agree with all the points about improving my driving abilities - especially the comment about undertaking driver improvement as this would enable me to 'take this mod with me to my next car'.
I do intend to sharpen my skills on track days (under supervision to start with). The RaceLogic TC can be adjusted and even turned off - so when I'm in a safer environment I can be a little braver (and get the rewards of real driving). I also understand that TC can not defy the laws of physics - so it only provides a little help to novices (like me) at the limit of my driving ability.
However, it's the recreational use that worries me more. I will be sharing the roads with other cars drivers (not trained or alert to deal with an oncoming Griff 500). A wet bumpy road, too much throttle blip while a wheel touches a slippery white line or diesel spill and I may not have the time/space to correct the situation before it becomes serious.
A country lane, I go round a corner to find a tractor pulling out of a field, or a boy racer on the wrong side of the road - and I may panic in these situations. When in a serious situation I would like to think that after training and practice I would be calm and would react in a controlled safe way to get out of trouble. However, I think that on the road (with no overruns etc), taken by nasty surprise, I would just panic; hit the brakes as hard as I could and try to steer out of trouble (whilst hopelessly skidding towards the inevitable serious accident).
Interesting comment about being able to turn-off the ABS - that sounds good to me, as this will let me improve on the track (without ABS - but switch it in for road use - when it’s not snowing).
There's a 2WD Sierra Cosworth ABS system (and wiring loom) on ebay, however, it doesn't include the uprights - but I guess it would provide a good start for this project. I must have a think how I could make the ABS 'turn-off' – perhaps if I could just ‘switch out’ a link from one sensors and the ABS CPU would disable the ABS (I think they are all fail safe)?
Thanks - I'll keep you all posted on my discussions with insurance companies and I’ll let you know how I get on.
I do intend to sharpen my skills on track days (under supervision to start with). The RaceLogic TC can be adjusted and even turned off - so when I'm in a safer environment I can be a little braver (and get the rewards of real driving). I also understand that TC can not defy the laws of physics - so it only provides a little help to novices (like me) at the limit of my driving ability.
However, it's the recreational use that worries me more. I will be sharing the roads with other cars drivers (not trained or alert to deal with an oncoming Griff 500). A wet bumpy road, too much throttle blip while a wheel touches a slippery white line or diesel spill and I may not have the time/space to correct the situation before it becomes serious.
A country lane, I go round a corner to find a tractor pulling out of a field, or a boy racer on the wrong side of the road - and I may panic in these situations. When in a serious situation I would like to think that after training and practice I would be calm and would react in a controlled safe way to get out of trouble. However, I think that on the road (with no overruns etc), taken by nasty surprise, I would just panic; hit the brakes as hard as I could and try to steer out of trouble (whilst hopelessly skidding towards the inevitable serious accident).
Interesting comment about being able to turn-off the ABS - that sounds good to me, as this will let me improve on the track (without ABS - but switch it in for road use - when it’s not snowing).
There's a 2WD Sierra Cosworth ABS system (and wiring loom) on ebay, however, it doesn't include the uprights - but I guess it would provide a good start for this project. I must have a think how I could make the ABS 'turn-off' – perhaps if I could just ‘switch out’ a link from one sensors and the ABS CPU would disable the ABS (I think they are all fail safe)?
Thanks - I'll keep you all posted on my discussions with insurance companies and I’ll let you know how I get on.
I'd tend to agree with Mark Adams...whilst ABS is not particularly intrusive, neither will it make a huge difference to the car's safety & manageability and it will cost a big chunk of money.
Griffs have a reputation (justified to some extent - especially if you throw a small diesel spill or some cowsh1t into the equation) of unpredictable oversteer in the wet, due to the massive amount of torque and limited traction. On this basis, there may be a case for fitting a good traction control system.
The standard cars' brakes are perfectly predictable in all weathers, though, and I'd argue that if you are so unskilled or insensitive that you need ABS to prevent locking up the wheels when braking, then you really shouldn't be driving a Griffith.
My company car has ABS, and I frequently find that when I am driving hard it just cuts in for 2 or 3 pulses at the moment I have already judged that the tyres have reached the limit of their grip and that I need to moderate the braking pressure. I can't remember ever being in a situation where I've come skating to a halt with the ABS juddering away, or needed it to allow me to steer and brake at the same time...my right foot can sort out these situations quite well on its own!
OK - the ABS doesn't get in the way in the same way that TCS can, and it provides a nice confirmation that the computer has arrived at the same judgement as myself that there is no more braking grip to be extracted from the tyres, but neither would I miss it or stop any slower if it wasn't there.
It seems pointless going to the additional expense and complication, therefore?
Griffs have a reputation (justified to some extent - especially if you throw a small diesel spill or some cowsh1t into the equation) of unpredictable oversteer in the wet, due to the massive amount of torque and limited traction. On this basis, there may be a case for fitting a good traction control system.
The standard cars' brakes are perfectly predictable in all weathers, though, and I'd argue that if you are so unskilled or insensitive that you need ABS to prevent locking up the wheels when braking, then you really shouldn't be driving a Griffith.
My company car has ABS, and I frequently find that when I am driving hard it just cuts in for 2 or 3 pulses at the moment I have already judged that the tyres have reached the limit of their grip and that I need to moderate the braking pressure. I can't remember ever being in a situation where I've come skating to a halt with the ABS juddering away, or needed it to allow me to steer and brake at the same time...my right foot can sort out these situations quite well on its own!
OK - the ABS doesn't get in the way in the same way that TCS can, and it provides a nice confirmation that the computer has arrived at the same judgement as myself that there is no more braking grip to be extracted from the tyres, but neither would I miss it or stop any slower if it wasn't there.
It seems pointless going to the additional expense and complication, therefore?
WASH YOUR MOUTH OUT!
seriously, go ahead if you feel it necessary, as Mark says i can be done. can't see it hurting or helping insurance etc, except it will be "modified"
BUT...
a sorted griff is NOT a wild thing! will NOT oversteer uncontrollably in the wet/dry/cowshot...anymore than any other powerfull car will. M3 etc (traction off)
get the suspension sorted if necessary
Peninsula
joospeed
gugliemi etc
have a couple of Ride drive / performance handling type lessons
then enjoy it!
I have to provoke mine to get it to step out. on drift days i have to be particularly rough with it whilst S2000s/sieras/SXs etc are all over the place!
well, having said that, its a touch easier to slide it now!
andy
www.ballisticbanana.co.uk/tvrmonster.htm
seriously, go ahead if you feel it necessary, as Mark says i can be done. can't see it hurting or helping insurance etc, except it will be "modified"
BUT...
a sorted griff is NOT a wild thing! will NOT oversteer uncontrollably in the wet/dry/cowshot...anymore than any other powerfull car will. M3 etc (traction off)
get the suspension sorted if necessary
Peninsula
joospeed
gugliemi etc
have a couple of Ride drive / performance handling type lessons
then enjoy it!
I have to provoke mine to get it to step out. on drift days i have to be particularly rough with it whilst S2000s/sieras/SXs etc are all over the place!
well, having said that, its a touch easier to slide it now!
andy
www.ballisticbanana.co.uk/tvrmonster.htm
Just to put your mind at rest, I have just bought a griff and over the weekend brought it back down south from York, then went to Super Car Sunday in the midlands and finally spent the aerly part of the week blatting about locally. A total of about 700 miles, with the only driver aid being power steering. Another massive handicap is that my regular day car is a Vauxhall Meriva! If I can make the transition than so can you (although driving in the wet will be a different prospect).
fleshlightfreddy said:
Just to put your mind at rest, I have just bought a griff and over the weekend brought it back down south from York, then went to Super Car Sunday in the midlands and finally spent the aerly part of the week blatting about locally. A total of about 700 miles, with the only driver aid being power steering. Another massive handicap is that my regular day car is a Vauxhall Meriva! If I can make the transition than so can you (although driving in the wet will be a different prospect).
BUT the roads are VERY dry at the moment.......
He was talking about bad weather conditions, damp greasy roads and a griff can be very dodgy ... even if you just blip the throttle going over a bump mid corner.
B
griffmod - I assure you that I felt EXACTLY the same as you when I bought my Chimaera 500 over 3 years ago. At the time I wrote what you have almost word-for-word.
However, I assure you that these cars are not the beasts that they appear to be. Provided the car is in good condition with correctly-adjusted suspension and good tyres, and you show sympathy and restraint in the wet, there is no reason to get into trouble.
The only time I have ever had problems was when my rear tyres needed changing. Although the tread depth was above the legal minimum it wasn't deep enough to disperse all the water and I had a worrying fishtail episode. But next time I will change the tyres sooner.
So in summary, I really do understand your concerns but I assure you that it is just lack of confidence that is causing your worries at the moment. They are mostly unfounded and you will quickly gain experience and confidence in the car. Obviously driver training will accelerate this process but it is not mandatory. Just take time to get to know the car and treat it with utmost respect (and perhaps a little healthy fear) until you do, and you'll be fine. I was.
>> Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 22 June 22:16
However, I assure you that these cars are not the beasts that they appear to be. Provided the car is in good condition with correctly-adjusted suspension and good tyres, and you show sympathy and restraint in the wet, there is no reason to get into trouble.
The only time I have ever had problems was when my rear tyres needed changing. Although the tread depth was above the legal minimum it wasn't deep enough to disperse all the water and I had a worrying fishtail episode. But next time I will change the tyres sooner.
So in summary, I really do understand your concerns but I assure you that it is just lack of confidence that is causing your worries at the moment. They are mostly unfounded and you will quickly gain experience and confidence in the car. Obviously driver training will accelerate this process but it is not mandatory. Just take time to get to know the car and treat it with utmost respect (and perhaps a little healthy fear) until you do, and you'll be fine. I was.
>> Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 22 June 22:16
Let's be clear about the distinction here, chaps.
Griffmod's question was about the addition of ABS, not the pros and cons of traction control. He appears to have already decided to fit traction control (and why not; it's his money, and the system is switchable).
ABS has NO INFLUENCE WHATSOEVER on oversteer, wet or dry, cowshit induced or right foot induced.
ABS stops the brakes from locking, and that is ALL it does. If you are not capable of modulating braking effort with your foot, I repeat, you should not be in the driver's seat of a Griffith.
>> Edited by Mutant Rat on Wednesday 22 June 22:24
Griffmod's question was about the addition of ABS, not the pros and cons of traction control. He appears to have already decided to fit traction control (and why not; it's his money, and the system is switchable).
ABS has NO INFLUENCE WHATSOEVER on oversteer, wet or dry, cowshit induced or right foot induced. ABS stops the brakes from locking, and that is ALL it does. If you are not capable of modulating braking effort with your foot, I repeat, you should not be in the driver's seat of a Griffith.
>> Edited by Mutant Rat on Wednesday 22 June 22:24
Mutant Rat said:
ABS stops the brakes from locking, and that is ALL it does. If you are not capable of modulating braking effort with your foot, I repeat, you should not be in the driver's seat of a Griffith.
>> Edited by Mutant Rat on Wednesday 22 June 22:24
Although I do not want to have ABS on my Griff, I feel this statement is incorrect.
When it is wet and someone walks out into the road and you panic and jump on the brakes you'll be thankful of ABS because it'll allow you to steer and avoid an accident.
If ABS helps you out just once, you'll be converted. If you think that you are better than ABS then you are simple wrong.
On track or on road when nothing unexpected happens then you do not need ABS, infact it can be a hindrance. But in the real world, in town on a wet street it can be a blessing.
I do not want to fit ABS to my Griff, but I do see the benefits of having it.
I have RL Traction Control and it is awesome. I switch it off most of the time, but in bad weather or on the track it simply provides a layer of control and amusement you would not believe. When combined with full throttle shift and launch control it adds to pleasure greatly of driving my Griff. To the extent that the 8 pts on my licence means I now have to sell the bloody thing to keep what's left!!
Would not go for ABS as it would be difficult as hell to fit.
Richard
Would not go for ABS as it would be difficult as hell to fit.
Richard
jellison said:Jon - I know you're a racing driver, but you have to realise that to mere mortals these cars can be initially quite intimidating.
Do the Tuscan Racer have TC - er NO. No Race car or car that want to be like a race car should - F1 is Shit enough with out TC.
If pissing down TVR is hardly the best car in any case.
Or are you suggesting that "proper" road cars shouldn't have a passenger seat, a roof / hood, stereo, lights or a tax disc either?
TBH everyone has their opinion and grifmod wants to fit TC and ABS, so let him be. He has come on and asked for advice not a lecture. Personally I would rather not have TC and ABS on my Griff, but that's my perogative.
I think saying that he should not have a Griff just because he wants these things on the car is just wrong, and IMHO a bit of a snotty thing to say. If he wants a Grif that's his choice as is the TC and ABS.
Anyhow Steve Heath's Bible contains detauls about fitting the Race Logic TC set up.
I think saying that he should not have a Griff just because he wants these things on the car is just wrong, and IMHO a bit of a snotty thing to say. If he wants a Grif that's his choice as is the TC and ABS.
Anyhow Steve Heath's Bible contains detauls about fitting the Race Logic TC set up.
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