Responding to a Social Services Section 7 report - advice?
Discussion
Hi all,
As I have, er, flapped about in this section of the forum previously
I'm helping a friend with his attempts to get a Child Arrangements Order in place that protects his kid.
As part of the process, Social Services / Cafcass are to do a Section 7 report on (hopefully...) all the relevant background information and the current situation.
The last order made instructed this report to be done, and from what I can work out, included some of the cut-and-paste wording from the Standard Orders volume 2 templates on the Judiciary website:
https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/practice-gui...
Order 7.2 - Private Law Case Management Directions and Orders Precedent Library
- Am I correct in thinking that at this point, the only additional evidence or supporting documentation he as litigant can put in is the Witness Statements referenced in the order, because this latest order was to get the 'official' evidence in as part of the Section 7 report?
- Or can he reference other documents (not already submitted) as evidence in a Position Statement (to be submitted the day before the Hearing?) and 'attach them for convenience'?
- Or would he have to wait and attempt to introduce them by way of referencing them during cross-examination (by him and against him)?
- Am I correct in thinking that the Witness Statements must include one from him as Litigant? Setting out the history, pointing out the issues, confirming what issues in dispute he wants the court to rule on, and stating what outcome he wants?
- And then any other Witness Statements from third parties that he might wish to submit?
- If that's right, does it matter (or look bad) if he doesn't submit any Witness Statements other than his?
- Would (all of) any third party witnesses have to attend court to be called to be cross-examined?
- If so, would he get to cross examine her witnesses?
He does not particularly want to involve anyone else if he doesn't have to, as the Respondent is a twisted nutjob that would not be averse to spreading malicious rumours (or worse) about those speaking against her, but he's also aware that she is highly likely to be submitting a number of Witness Statements from equally twisted family and friends, claiming she is equivalent to a female version of Jesus and beyond criticism, and that the Litigant is a beelzebub incarnate that only ever tells lies and physically hurts people.
She also has solicitors and a Barrister representing her, the latter of which has so far proved adept at suggesting black is white and is likely to destroy anyone he cross-examines...
Ooh, and before I forget...
- Her solicitors are preparing the bundle. The last bundle did not include evidence we'd submitted at the initial hearing.
- Are we (her solicitors and him as Litigant) supposed to agree the bundle before it is submitted to the court?
Any advice would be very gratefully received, thank you in advance for any input anyone has!!
I think this might be the last time I offer to help with this sort of thing - the stress is immense.
Apologies in advance for the additional questions that I will no doubt have as well
As I have, er, flapped about in this section of the forum previously
I'm helping a friend with his attempts to get a Child Arrangements Order in place that protects his kid.As part of the process, Social Services / Cafcass are to do a Section 7 report on (hopefully...) all the relevant background information and the current situation.
The last order made instructed this report to be done, and from what I can work out, included some of the cut-and-paste wording from the Standard Orders volume 2 templates on the Judiciary website:
https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/practice-gui...
Order 7.2 - Private Law Case Management Directions and Orders Precedent Library
Order 7.2 template said:
Section 7 report
• [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] / [[Name] Council] must by 4.00pm on [date] send to the court and to the parties a report under section 7 of the Children Act 1989 dealing with the following:
• with whom the child[ren] should live;
• whether the child[ren] should see the other parent [or [name]];
• how often and for how long the child[ren] should see the other parent [or [name]];
• the wishes and feelings of the child[[ren] so far as they can be ascertained;
• the home conditions and suitability of the accommodation of [name];
• the concerns of [name] with regard to [name];
• whether or not the child[ren]’s [physical] / [emotional] / [educational] needs are being met by [the parents] / [name];
• how the child[ren] would be affected by the proposed change of [insert];
• whether or not it appears that the child[ren] [has] / [have] suffered or are at risk of suffering [any harm] / [the harm alleged by [name]];
• the parenting capacity of [name] [having regard to the [allegations] / [findings] made];
• whether the local authority should be requested to report under section 37 of the Children Act 1989;
• (for interim orders before determination of facts) having regard to the allegations of domestic abuse if proved:
• the impact on the child[ren] and on the care given by the parent making the allegation of domestic abuse of any contact and the risk of harm, whether physical, emotional or psychological, if a contact order is made;
• whether contact between the child[ren] and the [mother] / [father] can take place safely (physically, emotionally and psychologically) for the child and the parent with whom the child is living;
• whether contact should be supervised or supported and, if so, where and by whom and the availability of resources for that purpose;
• if direct contact is not appropriate, whether there should be indirect contact and, if so, in what form;
• (in all cases where domestic abuse has been found to have occurred) having regard to the findings of fact made as set out in the Schedule to [this order] / [the order made on [date]]:
• any harm suffered by the child[ren] and the parent with whom the child[ren] are living as a consequence of the domestic abuse found;
• any harm which the child[ren] and the parent with whom the child[ren] are living is at risk of suffering if a contact order is made;
• information about the facilities available locally (including domestic abuse support services) to assist any party or the child[ren];
• the report should address the matters set out in paragraphs 36 and 37 of PD 12J;
• recommendations in respect of arrangements for the child[ren] including stepped arrangements with a view to a final order if possible.
The order also detailed about what needs to happen with Witness Statements, using some of the template wording again:• [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] / [[Name] Council] must by 4.00pm on [date] send to the court and to the parties a report under section 7 of the Children Act 1989 dealing with the following:
• with whom the child[ren] should live;
• whether the child[ren] should see the other parent [or [name]];
• how often and for how long the child[ren] should see the other parent [or [name]];
• the wishes and feelings of the child[[ren] so far as they can be ascertained;
• the home conditions and suitability of the accommodation of [name];
• the concerns of [name] with regard to [name];
• whether or not the child[ren]’s [physical] / [emotional] / [educational] needs are being met by [the parents] / [name];
• how the child[ren] would be affected by the proposed change of [insert];
• whether or not it appears that the child[ren] [has] / [have] suffered or are at risk of suffering [any harm] / [the harm alleged by [name]];
• the parenting capacity of [name] [having regard to the [allegations] / [findings] made];
• whether the local authority should be requested to report under section 37 of the Children Act 1989;
• (for interim orders before determination of facts) having regard to the allegations of domestic abuse if proved:
• the impact on the child[ren] and on the care given by the parent making the allegation of domestic abuse of any contact and the risk of harm, whether physical, emotional or psychological, if a contact order is made;
• whether contact between the child[ren] and the [mother] / [father] can take place safely (physically, emotionally and psychologically) for the child and the parent with whom the child is living;
• whether contact should be supervised or supported and, if so, where and by whom and the availability of resources for that purpose;
• if direct contact is not appropriate, whether there should be indirect contact and, if so, in what form;
• (in all cases where domestic abuse has been found to have occurred) having regard to the findings of fact made as set out in the Schedule to [this order] / [the order made on [date]]:
• any harm suffered by the child[ren] and the parent with whom the child[ren] are living as a consequence of the domestic abuse found;
• any harm which the child[ren] and the parent with whom the child[ren] are living is at risk of suffering if a contact order is made;
• information about the facilities available locally (including domestic abuse support services) to assist any party or the child[ren];
• the report should address the matters set out in paragraphs 36 and 37 of PD 12J;
• recommendations in respect of arrangements for the child[ren] including stepped arrangements with a view to a final order if possible.
Order 7.2 template said:
Witness statements
• The parties must by 4.00pm on [date] send to each other, to [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] and to the court written statements of the evidence they will give to the court.
• Copies of all statements must be sent to the court and to [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru]
• A party’s statement may be prepared using the witness statement template which is available from the court or at https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/...
• Each party's statement must set out:
• any relevant background information;
• the party's position in relation the matters which are not agreed;
• any relevant facts they are asking the court to decide about matters which are not agreed (this direction applies to the parties themselves and the statements of any witnesses they want to call); and
• the party's proposals for the arrangements for the child[ren]
• At the same time they file the papers with the court, the parties must also send to the court and the other [party] / [parties] and [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] copies of the statements of any other witness who they wish to give evidence about the facts of the case.
• Unless the court gives permission, nobody will be allowed to give oral evidence at a hearing unless their written statement has been sent by the date fixed in this order.
• Neither party may use the evidence of more than [number] additional witnesses.
• Every statement must:
• start with the name of the case and the case number;
• state the full name and address of the person making it;
• set out what the person has to say clearly in numbered paragraphs on numbered pages;
• end with this statement: 'I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.'; and
• be signed and dated by the person making it.
• If a witness or party is unable to read the statement in the form produced to the court, the statement must include a certificate that it has been read or interpreted to the witness by a suitably qualified person.
• If a witness who has made a statement is to give evidence or be questioned and is unable to do so in spoken English (or Welsh if the hearing is in Wales), the party relying on that witness must ensure that a suitable independent interpreter is available.
Now, this is going to be a reeeeeally stupid series of questions, I'm sure, but...• The parties must by 4.00pm on [date] send to each other, to [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] and to the court written statements of the evidence they will give to the court.
• Copies of all statements must be sent to the court and to [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru]
• A party’s statement may be prepared using the witness statement template which is available from the court or at https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/...
• Each party's statement must set out:
• any relevant background information;
• the party's position in relation the matters which are not agreed;
• any relevant facts they are asking the court to decide about matters which are not agreed (this direction applies to the parties themselves and the statements of any witnesses they want to call); and
• the party's proposals for the arrangements for the child[ren]
• At the same time they file the papers with the court, the parties must also send to the court and the other [party] / [parties] and [Cafcass] / [CAFCASS Cymru] copies of the statements of any other witness who they wish to give evidence about the facts of the case.
• Unless the court gives permission, nobody will be allowed to give oral evidence at a hearing unless their written statement has been sent by the date fixed in this order.
• Neither party may use the evidence of more than [number] additional witnesses.
• Every statement must:
• start with the name of the case and the case number;
• state the full name and address of the person making it;
• set out what the person has to say clearly in numbered paragraphs on numbered pages;
• end with this statement: 'I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.'; and
• be signed and dated by the person making it.
• If a witness or party is unable to read the statement in the form produced to the court, the statement must include a certificate that it has been read or interpreted to the witness by a suitably qualified person.
• If a witness who has made a statement is to give evidence or be questioned and is unable to do so in spoken English (or Welsh if the hearing is in Wales), the party relying on that witness must ensure that a suitable independent interpreter is available.
- Am I correct in thinking that at this point, the only additional evidence or supporting documentation he as litigant can put in is the Witness Statements referenced in the order, because this latest order was to get the 'official' evidence in as part of the Section 7 report?
- Or can he reference other documents (not already submitted) as evidence in a Position Statement (to be submitted the day before the Hearing?) and 'attach them for convenience'?
- Or would he have to wait and attempt to introduce them by way of referencing them during cross-examination (by him and against him)?
- Am I correct in thinking that the Witness Statements must include one from him as Litigant? Setting out the history, pointing out the issues, confirming what issues in dispute he wants the court to rule on, and stating what outcome he wants?
- And then any other Witness Statements from third parties that he might wish to submit?
- If that's right, does it matter (or look bad) if he doesn't submit any Witness Statements other than his?
- Would (all of) any third party witnesses have to attend court to be called to be cross-examined?
- If so, would he get to cross examine her witnesses?
He does not particularly want to involve anyone else if he doesn't have to, as the Respondent is a twisted nutjob that would not be averse to spreading malicious rumours (or worse) about those speaking against her, but he's also aware that she is highly likely to be submitting a number of Witness Statements from equally twisted family and friends, claiming she is equivalent to a female version of Jesus and beyond criticism, and that the Litigant is a beelzebub incarnate that only ever tells lies and physically hurts people.
She also has solicitors and a Barrister representing her, the latter of which has so far proved adept at suggesting black is white and is likely to destroy anyone he cross-examines...
Ooh, and before I forget...
- Her solicitors are preparing the bundle. The last bundle did not include evidence we'd submitted at the initial hearing.
- Are we (her solicitors and him as Litigant) supposed to agree the bundle before it is submitted to the court?
Any advice would be very gratefully received, thank you in advance for any input anyone has!!
I think this might be the last time I offer to help with this sort of thing - the stress is immense.
Apologies in advance for the additional questions that I will no doubt have as well
My only experience of this was a now ex girlfriend and her x Exhusband
It is not a nice process and cafcas are ( in her case) not that great. The evidence presentation was a mess with stuff lost by the court , not read and last minute Cancellations of hearings And changes of judge which made it more of a lottery as there was no continuity.
She went dozens of times ( still is as far as I know ) and the above happened at most so it was not a one off.
She represented herself and the other side had barrister / solicitor. The court is actually quite good with litigants in person but the lawyers know that if they serve docs late they can get away with it and this puts true other side at a disadvantage as they only see the submissions on the day.
Bear in mind that the overriding aim is for both parents to see the child.
This does not really help with your questions as I was not that close to it. It is probably also not what you want to hear. It was not a nice thing to be involved with.
It is not a nice process and cafcas are ( in her case) not that great. The evidence presentation was a mess with stuff lost by the court , not read and last minute Cancellations of hearings And changes of judge which made it more of a lottery as there was no continuity.
She went dozens of times ( still is as far as I know ) and the above happened at most so it was not a one off.
She represented herself and the other side had barrister / solicitor. The court is actually quite good with litigants in person but the lawyers know that if they serve docs late they can get away with it and this puts true other side at a disadvantage as they only see the submissions on the day.
Bear in mind that the overriding aim is for both parents to see the child.
This does not really help with your questions as I was not that close to it. It is probably also not what you want to hear. It was not a nice thing to be involved with.
Afraid I can't help directly but I can only tell your friend to be prepared for a whole world of hurt and frustration, having seen a good friend fight for a ridiculous amount of time to see his daughter properly due to malicious and false allegations and the sheer ineptitude of CAFCASS and the family courts
It ended up costing him around £25k just to be able to have access to his daughter outside a contact centre, at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Member of staff going on long term sick due to stress, turning up at court to find that CAFCASS had not completed of submitted relevant reports, the list of incompetence was long and varied
Obviously some of this depends on the sheer bloody-mindedness and lunacy of the ex involved
Apologies for being the harbinger of doom but best to be prepared
It ended up costing him around £25k just to be able to have access to his daughter outside a contact centre, at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Member of staff going on long term sick due to stress, turning up at court to find that CAFCASS had not completed of submitted relevant reports, the list of incompetence was long and varied
Obviously some of this depends on the sheer bloody-mindedness and lunacy of the ex involved
Apologies for being the harbinger of doom but best to be prepared
Pieman68 said:
at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Fortunately they are changing the law so psychos like this can be prosecuted and locked up for breaking the court order - just like you would as the non-resident parent.However, In practice, I wonder if they would actually lock a parent with care up or chicken out on the grounds it "might harm the child".
Many thanks for the responses, gents 
) so it's not unexpected...
We've also experienced the court failing to get documents uploaded onto the system in time for a remote hearing (thanks to a backroom staff that are surely massively understaffed and overworked) but, thankfully, the judge has been pin-sharp and not taken any nonsense from her Barrister, regardless of what we submitted not being read!
I am crossing everything that we will get the same judge again, but luck is not always that good.
So far the other party has played ball reasonably well, but as she's a narcissist, we do not trust anything that is said/done. We are not looking forward to the cross-examination process at all, given the Barrister's skill at painting exactly the picture they want to paint, so we need to do some homework on that front.
However, In practice, I wonder if they would actually lock a parent with care up or chicken out on the grounds it "might harm the child".I didn't know that, it seems like good news! But as you say, I fear they'd have to be Josef Fritzl to get any conviction with jail time...
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
My only experience of this was a now ex girlfriend and her x Exhusband
It is not a nice process and cafcas are ( in her case) not that great. The evidence presentation was a mess with stuff lost by the court , not read and last minute Cancellations of hearings And changes of judge which made it more of a lottery as there was no continuity.
She went dozens of times ( still is as far as I know ) and the above happened at most so it was not a one off.
She represented herself and the other side had barrister / solicitor. The court is actually quite good with litigants in person but the lawyers know that if they serve docs late they can get away with it and this puts true other side at a disadvantage as they only see the submissions on the day.
Bear in mind that the overriding aim is for both parents to see the child.
This does not really help with your questions as I was not that close to it. It is probably also not what you want to hear. It was not a nice thing to be involved with.
It is not a nice process and cafcas are ( in her case) not that great. The evidence presentation was a mess with stuff lost by the court , not read and last minute Cancellations of hearings And changes of judge which made it more of a lottery as there was no continuity.
She went dozens of times ( still is as far as I know ) and the above happened at most so it was not a one off.
She represented herself and the other side had barrister / solicitor. The court is actually quite good with litigants in person but the lawyers know that if they serve docs late they can get away with it and this puts true other side at a disadvantage as they only see the submissions on the day.
Bear in mind that the overriding aim is for both parents to see the child.
This does not really help with your questions as I was not that close to it. It is probably also not what you want to hear. It was not a nice thing to be involved with.
Pieman68 said:
Afraid I can't help directly but I can only tell your friend to be prepared for a whole world of hurt and frustration, having seen a good friend fight for a ridiculous amount of time to see his daughter properly due to malicious and false allegations and the sheer ineptitude of CAFCASS and the family courts
It ended up costing him around £25k just to be able to have access to his daughter outside a contact centre, at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Member of staff going on long term sick due to stress, turning up at court to find that CAFCASS had not completed of submitted relevant reports, the list of incompetence was long and varied
Obviously some of this depends on the sheer bloody-mindedness and lunacy of the ex involved
Apologies for being the harbinger of doom but best to be prepared
We have already experienced the late serving of papers by her Barrister (10-to-midnight the night before, anyone? It ended up costing him around £25k just to be able to have access to his daughter outside a contact centre, at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Member of staff going on long term sick due to stress, turning up at court to find that CAFCASS had not completed of submitted relevant reports, the list of incompetence was long and varied
Obviously some of this depends on the sheer bloody-mindedness and lunacy of the ex involved
Apologies for being the harbinger of doom but best to be prepared
) so it's not unexpected...We've also experienced the court failing to get documents uploaded onto the system in time for a remote hearing (thanks to a backroom staff that are surely massively understaffed and overworked) but, thankfully, the judge has been pin-sharp and not taken any nonsense from her Barrister, regardless of what we submitted not being read!
I am crossing everything that we will get the same judge again, but luck is not always that good.
So far the other party has played ball reasonably well, but as she's a narcissist, we do not trust anything that is said/done. We are not looking forward to the cross-examination process at all, given the Barrister's skill at painting exactly the picture they want to paint, so we need to do some homework on that front.
Psycho Warren said:
Pieman68 said:
at which point his ex ignored everything that the court had put in place and just went out whenever his time came to collect his daughter, so back to court they went to go around in circles again
Fortunately they are changing the law so psychos like this can be prosecuted and locked up for breaking the court order - just like you would as the non-resident parent.However, In practice, I wonder if they would actually lock a parent with care up or chicken out on the grounds it "might harm the child".
hyphen said:
What arrangements is he seeking? 50-50, more, less?
More than 50/50, which I imagine is going to be a challenge to secure.Who initiated court proceedings? What stage are you at, it sounds like you've had the FHDRA?
Witnesses and cross examination would be at a fact finding hearing, is that the way this is going?
Are there allegations of harm? If so, a scott schedule could be put together along side a folder of 'evidence'. The scott schedule then would refer to each relevant piece of evidence.
I wouldn't recommend doing fact finding hearing without a barrister, particularly if the opposing side has a barrister. I'm not saying that rules are broken in family court, but if you have a weak judge, the opposing barrister will take the piss and take you apart.
In relation to a section 7, personally i would prefer Cafcass to do it, social services are a bit weak and tend to only act when its too late. IMO
Witnesses and cross examination would be at a fact finding hearing, is that the way this is going?
Are there allegations of harm? If so, a scott schedule could be put together along side a folder of 'evidence'. The scott schedule then would refer to each relevant piece of evidence.
I wouldn't recommend doing fact finding hearing without a barrister, particularly if the opposing side has a barrister. I'm not saying that rules are broken in family court, but if you have a weak judge, the opposing barrister will take the piss and take you apart.
In relation to a section 7, personally i would prefer Cafcass to do it, social services are a bit weak and tend to only act when its too late. IMO
Christmassss said:
Who initiated court proceedings? What stage are you at, it sounds like you've had the FHDRA?
Witnesses and cross examination would be at a fact finding hearing, is that the way this is going?
Are there allegations of harm? If so, a scott schedule could be put together along side a folder of 'evidence'. The scott schedule then would refer to each relevant piece of evidence.
I wouldn't recommend doing fact finding hearing without a barrister, particularly if the opposing side has a barrister. I'm not saying that rules are broken in family court, but if you have a weak judge, the opposing barrister will take the piss and take you apart.
In relation to a section 7, personally i would prefer Cafcass to do it, social services are a bit weak and tend to only act when its too late. IMO
Thanks for your reply!Witnesses and cross examination would be at a fact finding hearing, is that the way this is going?
Are there allegations of harm? If so, a scott schedule could be put together along side a folder of 'evidence'. The scott schedule then would refer to each relevant piece of evidence.
I wouldn't recommend doing fact finding hearing without a barrister, particularly if the opposing side has a barrister. I'm not saying that rules are broken in family court, but if you have a weak judge, the opposing barrister will take the piss and take you apart.
In relation to a section 7, personally i would prefer Cafcass to do it, social services are a bit weak and tend to only act when its too late. IMO
He initiated in order to seek more access and protect his kid from her actions.
We've had FDRHA and Cafcass/Social Services have both done initial reports.
Section 7 is the next step, and the order says we have to submit Witness Statements when we get it.
The next hearing is apparently a Final Hearing - but it seems to be a Fact Finding / cross-examination hearing combined with a Final Hearing? Or is a FF Hearing usually a Final Hearing??
Similar to as you say, a friend advised that they had to agree a Scott Schedule - to agree the points of contention and therefore what to cross-examine about, but without offering evidence for/against each point up-front? - but we've not been instructed to do this, only submit Witness Statements.
Perhaps that's because we've not got legal representation?
My main worry is that we will only submit his Witness Statement while she submits a pile of BS-filled Witness Statements from gullible 'friends' in order to help paint the picture she and her Barrister wants - we won't know what they are doing until the deadline for submission... (although we are tempted to 'accidentally' be late submitting his statement if it might mean we are able to make sure we have everything covered - the hearing is not for a while.)
I would rather rely on hard evidence and reports from professionals, in the hope they carry more weight, and hopefully the judge will see we are less 'he said / she said' and therefore more credible... but being taken apart by the Barrister is a massive risk.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Thursday 9th July 17:05
RSTurboPaul said:
Thanks for your reply!
He initiated in order to seek more access and protect his kid from her actions.
We've had FDRHA and Cafcass/Social Services have both done initial reports.
Section 7 is the next step, and the order says we have to submit Witness Statements when we get it.
The next hearing is apparently a Final Hearing - but it seems to be a Fact Finding / cross-examination hearing combined with a Final Hearing? Or is a FF Hearing usually a Final Hearing??
Similar to as you say, a friend advised that they had to agree a Scott Schedule - to agree the points of contention and therefore what to cross-examine about, but without offering evidence for/against each point up-front? - but we've not been instructed to do this, only submit Witness Statements.
Perhaps that's because we've not got legal representation?
My main worry is that we will only submit his Witness Statement while she submits a pile of BS-filled Witness Statements from gullible 'friends' in order to help paint the picture she and her Barrister wants - we won't know what they are doing until the deadline for submission... (although we are tempted to 'accidentally' be late submitting his statement if it might mean we are able to make sure we have everything covered - the hearing is not for a while.)
I would rather rely on hard evidence and reports from professionals, in the hope they carry more weight, and hopefully the judge will see we are less 'he said / she said' and therefore more credible... but being taken apart by the Barrister is a massive risk.
I will do my best to reply to this on my phone, but my screen is cracked so will re review tomorrow. He initiated in order to seek more access and protect his kid from her actions.
We've had FDRHA and Cafcass/Social Services have both done initial reports.
Section 7 is the next step, and the order says we have to submit Witness Statements when we get it.
The next hearing is apparently a Final Hearing - but it seems to be a Fact Finding / cross-examination hearing combined with a Final Hearing? Or is a FF Hearing usually a Final Hearing??
Similar to as you say, a friend advised that they had to agree a Scott Schedule - to agree the points of contention and therefore what to cross-examine about, but without offering evidence for/against each point up-front? - but we've not been instructed to do this, only submit Witness Statements.
Perhaps that's because we've not got legal representation?
My main worry is that we will only submit his Witness Statement while she submits a pile of BS-filled Witness Statements from gullible 'friends' in order to help paint the picture she and her Barrister wants - we won't know what they are doing until the deadline for submission... (although we are tempted to 'accidentally' be late submitting his statement if it might mean we are able to make sure we have everything covered - the hearing is not for a while.)
I would rather rely on hard evidence and reports from professionals, in the hope they carry more weight, and hopefully the judge will see we are less 'he said / she said' and therefore more credible... but being taken apart by the Barrister is a massive risk.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Thursday 9th July 17:05
I understand if you don’t want to divulge, but what actions is she taking against the child?
I would be surprised if you only had to submit witness statements. Do you have any more evidence apart from witness statements? Doctors notes? School/nursery reports? Pictures? Texts/emails?
In an ideal world, Cafcass will discover issues themselves, as you rightly point out, their reports carry much more weight, but I would not rely on them discovering the claims.
The format should follow the practice direction 12J. So you should have the opportunity to submit a Scott schedule. Is there a date on the current order to submit documents before the next hearing?
A Fact finding hearing is not a final hearing, unless the section 7 and associated evidence are so weak/strong or the judge thinks that an agreement can be reached then it would turn into a final.
It’s not the easiest to provide 100% accurate advice without seeing the court order and knowing the background and exactly what you are asking for from the court
Christmassss said:
I will do my best to reply to this on my phone, but my screen is cracked so will re review tomorrow.
Is it an iPhone? They seem to crack for fun 
lolChristmassss said:
I understand if you don’t want to divulge, but what actions is she taking against the child?
I would be surprised if you only had to submit witness statements. Do you have any more evidence apart from witness statements? Doctors notes? School/nursery reports? Pictures? Texts/emails?
In an ideal world, Cafcass will discover issues themselves, as you rightly point out, their reports carry much more weight, but I would not rely on them discovering the claims.
The format should follow the practice direction 12J. So you should have the opportunity to submit a Scott schedule. Is there a date on the current order to submit documents before the next hearing?
A Fact finding hearing is not a final hearing, unless the section 7 and associated evidence are so weak/strong or the judge thinks that an agreement can be reached then it would turn into a final.
It’s not the easiest to provide 100% accurate advice without seeing the court order and knowing the background and exactly what you are asking for from the court
I would be surprised if you only had to submit witness statements. Do you have any more evidence apart from witness statements? Doctors notes? School/nursery reports? Pictures? Texts/emails?
In an ideal world, Cafcass will discover issues themselves, as you rightly point out, their reports carry much more weight, but I would not rely on them discovering the claims.
The format should follow the practice direction 12J. So you should have the opportunity to submit a Scott schedule. Is there a date on the current order to submit documents before the next hearing?
A Fact finding hearing is not a final hearing, unless the section 7 and associated evidence are so weak/strong or the judge thinks that an agreement can be reached then it would turn into a final.
It’s not the easiest to provide 100% accurate advice without seeing the court order and knowing the background and exactly what you are asking for from the court
Fab32 said:
Who has been instructed to undertake the section 7 report CAFCASS or Children's services?
What is is the request for that is in dispute?
How old is the child or children?
I am hesitant to post too many details because one never knows who is watching - I know it's highly unlikely anyone involved from her end will stumble on this thread or be alerted to it by someone else aware of the case, but 'just in case'...What is is the request for that is in dispute?
How old is the child or children?
Child in question is not yet 14 but not far away - although is pretty 'adult' because of her behaviour.
Everything strongly points towards the suspected physical and mental harm:
- physical illness;
- impacts on the child's education;
- emotional withdrawal by the child; and
- the child's difficulty interacting with the father and other adults due to mental manipulation and abuse by her (such as blackmail, coercion and guilt-tripping) and having to remember to say different things to different people (as instructed by the mother) in order to be of use in furthering the mother's own interests and her work towards the end game in her narcissistic desire to 'win' against the father regardless of the cost to the child.
We have already submitted various things supporting our position pretty strongly, some of which were 'missing' from the bundle put together by her solicitors for the last hearing.....
This has included information from the school and medical professionals, who have also been spoken with as part of the 'official' reporting undertaken so far.She is a narcissist and not afraid to flat-out lie, as well as create situations and report imaginary conflicts that might give her false 'evidence trails' to use against the child's father. Everything we've put forward she has disputed and will deny in court, and I suspect she will lie under oath without compunction. Reporting so far has picked up on inconsistencies in her stories.
Both Cafcass and Children's Services have already undertaken preliminary reports, and Children's Services are likely to be undertaking the Section 7. (It seems each organisations' capacity to do the work is a factor they need to consider.)
The court has directed the Section 7 report to investigate why things have been the way they have and put forward proposals for what the Child Arrangements Order / contact arrangements should be going forward.
The most recent court order orders the Section 7 report to be submitted in the near future, with the party's responses to be submitted a short time after that.
Nothing is specified in the order in terms of what the parties submit in response to the Section 7 report, other than the section on Witness Statements mentioned in the OP. There is the usual blurb about documents can only be filed in accordance with the rules / Practice Directions, and only with the courts permission.
The next hearing detailed within the order is called a final hearing. Cross examination will definitely happen at this hearing.
Do we need to resubmit the C100 and all the supporting paperwork we initially submitted? Or will (should...) her solicitors include them in the Bundle?
Do we need to resubmit the additional, updated supporting paperwork submitted with a Position Statement we put in at a later point?
Do we agree the Bundle with her solicitors or trust them to do it? (They 'forgot' key paperwork we relied on last time... and I read that it is usually agreed when both parties have legal representation?)
Thank you for the reference to PD12J - I will have a read through all of it. I had a quick skim and now I'm confused as to whether the judge has already taken the view that DV is happening and therefore skipped a separate fact finding hearing, or whether they are saving us as Litigants in Person from the delay and hassle of a separate final hearing??
I feel totally lost as to how to phrase and structure cross-examination questions - Amazon has a wealth of very expensive books on it but none will be a candle against a Barrister's training and experience. I just think that anything we ask her about she will say has been recorded incorrectly and she 'never said that'...
The evidence we have is strong, I feel, but I just don't know how much weight that will carry when she will never own up to anything she has done and we are likely to get steamrollered by her Barrister.
Thank you again, gents, for any assistance or guidance you can give!!
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 00:58
RSTurboPaul said:
Words
It is an iphone, I tell myself i will move onto something else but never do!Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 00:58
I was working on the basis that the child was younger, as a 13 year old she will be spoken to directly as part of the section 7 and will be asked what she wants. Do you know what her answer to that will be?
Because she is represented it is her solicitors responsibility to submit the bundle to court.
I would be submitting a Scott Schedule with supporting evidence though if i were you. Submit it as part of the response to the section 7. Worst case scenario is that the Judge tells you that it wasn't the correct way to do it, but as a litigant in person you get a certain grace over procedural 'mistakes'.
I have a template for a Scott Schedule and a witness statement if you want to DM me your email address.
The C100 will already be on court record so you wont need to resubmit that, but if your evidence is relevant to harm to the child then it can be included as part of your Scott Schedule. I would however, have copies of every single document you have submitted and is relevant to hand, in case the opposing side has 'accidentally' omitted it. Don't be afraid to raise this in court either.
In relation to the opposing sides lies, this is not surprising. A court hearing will bring out a lot of mud slinging so be prepared for that, try and keep focused and calm and limit responses that start with 'yeah, but....' If you can provide proof of deceitful behaviour and show the judge the opposing side cannot be trusted than it wont really matter what they say.
I wouldn't focus on the cross examination side of things too much yet, wait for the section 7 report to come in and then look at areas to focus your questioning on.
Is there 100% no way that you can get a barrister to represent you for the hearing?
I do have a question, and it is something that will be raised in court, if the evidence you have is so strong and the affects are so noticeable in the child then why has it taken so long to take it to court? Additionally if the affects on the child are so bad, why are you allowing unsupervised contact at all?
Those are the kind of questions you need to prepare for, your ability to parent will be questioned, your complicity to any alleged abuse will be questioned, everything you are accusing the opposing side of will be thrown back at you.
Christmassss said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Words
It is an iphone, I tell myself i will move onto something else but never do!Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 00:58
I was working on the basis that the child was younger, as a 13 year old she will be spoken to directly as part of the section 7 and will be asked what she wants. Do you know what her answer to that will be?
Because she is represented it is her solicitors responsibility to submit the bundle to court.
I would be submitting a Scott Schedule with supporting evidence though if i were you. Submit it as part of the response to the section 7. Worst case scenario is that the Judge tells you that it wasn't the correct way to do it, but as a litigant in person you get a certain grace over procedural 'mistakes'.
I have a template for a Scott Schedule and a witness statement if you want to DM me your email address.
The C100 will already be on court record so you wont need to resubmit that, but if your evidence is relevant to harm to the child then it can be included as part of your Scott Schedule. I would however, have copies of every single document you have submitted and is relevant to hand, in case the opposing side has 'accidentally' omitted it. Don't be afraid to raise this in court either.
In relation to the opposing sides lies, this is not surprising. A court hearing will bring out a lot of mud slinging so be prepared for that, try and keep focused and calm and limit responses that start with 'yeah, but....' If you can provide proof of deceitful behaviour and show the judge the opposing side cannot be trusted than it wont really matter what they say.
I wouldn't focus on the cross examination side of things too much yet, wait for the section 7 report to come in and then look at areas to focus your questioning on.
Is there 100% no way that you can get a barrister to represent you for the hearing?
I do have a question, and it is something that will be raised in court, if the evidence you have is so strong and the affects are so noticeable in the child then why has it taken so long to take it to court? Additionally if the affects on the child are so bad, why are you allowing unsupervised contact at all?
Those are the kind of questions you need to prepare for, your ability to parent will be questioned, your complicity to any alleged abuse will be questioned, everything you are accusing the opposing side of will be thrown back at you.
Having never done this before we've both been surprised by the ability of her barrister to paint black as white and infer things that have never happened (and can't be evidenced either way, so help to cast doubt without any supporting documentation), so I am feeling like we're very vulnerable in terms of being made to dance to the tune of her Barrister's intended music during questioning, while also being unable to extract the responses we would like from her due to not having that skillset in cross-examination.
Mr Breadvan was asked by several on this forum if he would be kind enough to run a training session in cross-examination, as it was felt by them that it would be extremely useful to have that experience in advance, but he got temporarily banned for apparently soliciting for work and is disinclined to return to the forum when others seem able to be recommended without punishment!
Anyway, as you say, we have time to look at that sort of thing between submission of the response to the Section 7 and the next hearing date, and hopefully we might be able to sort at least some brief training.
It would be ideal if we could get some time with a Barrister or solicitor and to run through everything and get their take on possible angles to attack / defend, but there is a lot to go through and talk about (therefore a lot of time needed), the litigant can barely scrape two pennies together, and most people like to work for money... lol.
We may see if Advocate can offer some Pro Bono assistance, but I am also of the mind that perhaps it might change the judge's view of the litigant and give us less 'leeway' or credence in terms of clearly being at a disadvantage against £££££ worth of legal representation?
If we do somehow secure legal assistance, I'm not sure how late we are able to notify the court? I'm not sure how close to the hearing the Bundle will be submitted (or when we will receive it).
We believe that the child will state they would prefer to remain with Dad, but the manipulation by the mother may mean it does not come out initially (or at all...).
I think it would be good to draw out how manipulative and unreliable she is, but I'm wary of it becoming a 'him vs her' and 'he said / she said' encounter when we have tried to make sure the focus is entirely on the child (which I understand is the court's focus). If she can be shown to clearly be a lying, manipulative fantasist, though, that would be very useful... I just don't know how much weight we could put on statements made by others to support / evidence that argument.
I think it's the C120 Witness Statement form that we need to use?? But it would be very useful to have a Scott Schedule template, thank you for the offer
I did think, though, that the Scott Schedule was just a list of the things that the parties wanted to be argued/determined, without giving the evidence up front?? (I really don't want to reveal our hand / planned approach if we don't have to - but I don't know how hard it will be to introduce new documents during the cross-examination process?)
Would it be bad form to try to use (personal) documents submitted by both parties from previous hearings for previous court orders? I feel like we will otherwise end up only relying on the limited (but pretty strong) documentation we've already submitted so far.
re: the time taken to get to this point, as a narcissist she is a skilled manipulator and seems able to present the face of a victim and a caring mother to people when she first meets them, stating any and all issues lay at the door of the father. Fortunately, as seems to be the case with narcissists, at some point the mask has slipped or she has forgotten what lies she's said previously, and people have then changed their view of her and the situation.
It has taken time for this to happen and for third parties to realise the father is not the bad person she has claimed to anyone that will listen, but this has also meant that the evidence base has had time to build up.
The position so far has been that the father wants the child to have a good relationship with the mother, hence unsupervised access has been difficult to refuse, but she will never change and perhaps the Section 7 report will provide enough that the position can be changed. We will see.
Thanks again for your assistance!
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 12:53
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 12:54
RSTurboPaul said:
More words
Ah, so you have noted already about the burden of proof in family court being lower than in criminal court. In family court you only need to show the likely hood of something having happened rather than beyond all reasonable doubt. Make of that what you will! Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 12:53
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 10th July 12:54
You can switch to being represented by a barrister/solicitor whenever you want, I obtained legal aid for someone recently 2 days before a FF hearing and the solicitor took over from that point onwards.
If the child states their wishes are in line with what you are asking for, then that's 90% of the job done. As you quite rightly state, the focus of the court is to do what is best for the child involved. If that does happen, prepare for the response from the opposing side to be that you are engaging in parental alienation etc.
To prove the lies, something factual in messages or similar that can show a clear deviation of the truth would be good. Witness statements are OK, but they are always taken with a pinch of salt, unless they come from a truly independent and unbiased source.
I have sent you a DM, if you reply I will attach the sample scott schedule and the witness statement template which includes a guide on how to fill it out. The C120 form is OK, my personal opinion of it (so please don't take it as gospel) is that a judge will have favourite sections to read though and may miss out key points. I assume the current order doesn't specify the C120 has to be used?
You will not be able to introduce any evidence at the actual hearing that hasn't already been submitted to the opposing party/court.
The scott schedule is essentially a list of allegations where the other party has done something illegal or wrong that was abusive, dishonest or harmful. For each allegation you ideally need to have at least 1 piece of evidence backing it up.
On the example i can send you, i have left one line on the schedule from an actual case to give you an idea of what to put in it.
Sometimes the court will ask for a Scott Schedule to be submitted before the section 7 is carried out so the judge can tell Cafcass/Social what areas to focus on.
In relation to previous court documents already submitted in previous hearings, it depends on what the existing court orders say. If the judge that heard those previous cases has used the evidence previously submitted to make decisions or alternatively already dismissed the evidence, then no. But this should be noted on the relevant court orders. So i cant be 100% accurate, but if the previous cases never reached fact finding, you should be able to submit previously used documents as long as they hold some relevance.
Good answers in relation to my questions, those are the type of questions that will be asked in court.
Christmassss said:
Ah, so you have noted already about the burden of proof in family court being lower than in criminal court. In family court you only need to show the likely hood of something having happened rather than beyond all reasonable doubt. Make of that what you will!
You can switch to being represented by a barrister/solicitor whenever you want, I obtained legal aid for someone recently 2 days before a FF hearing and the solicitor took over from that point onwards.
If the child states their wishes are in line with what you are asking for, then that's 90% of the job done. As you quite rightly state, the focus of the court is to do what is best for the child involved. If that does happen, prepare for the response from the opposing side to be that you are engaging in parental alienation etc.
To prove the lies, something factual in messages or similar that can show a clear deviation of the truth would be good. Witness statements are OK, but they are always taken with a pinch of salt, unless they come from a truly independent and unbiased source.
I have sent you a DM, if you reply I will attach the sample scott schedule and the witness statement template which includes a guide on how to fill it out. The C120 form is OK, my personal opinion of it (so please don't take it as gospel) is that a judge will have favourite sections to read though and may miss out key points. I assume the current order doesn't specify the C120 has to be used?
You will not be able to introduce any evidence at the actual hearing that hasn't already been submitted to the opposing party/court.
The scott schedule is essentially a list of allegations where the other party has done something illegal or wrong that was abusive, dishonest or harmful. For each allegation you ideally need to have at least 1 piece of evidence backing it up.
On the example i can send you, i have left one line on the schedule from an actual case to give you an idea of what to put in it.
Sometimes the court will ask for a Scott Schedule to be submitted before the section 7 is carried out so the judge can tell Cafcass/Social what areas to focus on.
In relation to previous court documents already submitted in previous hearings, it depends on what the existing court orders say. If the judge that heard those previous cases has used the evidence previously submitted to make decisions or alternatively already dismissed the evidence, then no. But this should be noted on the relevant court orders. So i cant be 100% accurate, but if the previous cases never reached fact finding, you should be able to submit previously used documents as long as they hold some relevance.
Good answers in relation to my questions, those are the type of questions that will be asked in court.
I had not twigged about the not needing to show 'beyond reasonable doubt'! but it does ring a bell now you mention it.You can switch to being represented by a barrister/solicitor whenever you want, I obtained legal aid for someone recently 2 days before a FF hearing and the solicitor took over from that point onwards.
If the child states their wishes are in line with what you are asking for, then that's 90% of the job done. As you quite rightly state, the focus of the court is to do what is best for the child involved. If that does happen, prepare for the response from the opposing side to be that you are engaging in parental alienation etc.
To prove the lies, something factual in messages or similar that can show a clear deviation of the truth would be good. Witness statements are OK, but they are always taken with a pinch of salt, unless they come from a truly independent and unbiased source.
I have sent you a DM, if you reply I will attach the sample scott schedule and the witness statement template which includes a guide on how to fill it out. The C120 form is OK, my personal opinion of it (so please don't take it as gospel) is that a judge will have favourite sections to read though and may miss out key points. I assume the current order doesn't specify the C120 has to be used?
You will not be able to introduce any evidence at the actual hearing that hasn't already been submitted to the opposing party/court.
The scott schedule is essentially a list of allegations where the other party has done something illegal or wrong that was abusive, dishonest or harmful. For each allegation you ideally need to have at least 1 piece of evidence backing it up.
On the example i can send you, i have left one line on the schedule from an actual case to give you an idea of what to put in it.
Sometimes the court will ask for a Scott Schedule to be submitted before the section 7 is carried out so the judge can tell Cafcass/Social what areas to focus on.
In relation to previous court documents already submitted in previous hearings, it depends on what the existing court orders say. If the judge that heard those previous cases has used the evidence previously submitted to make decisions or alternatively already dismissed the evidence, then no. But this should be noted on the relevant court orders. So i cant be 100% accurate, but if the previous cases never reached fact finding, you should be able to submit previously used documents as long as they hold some relevance.
Good answers in relation to my questions, those are the type of questions that will be asked in court.
If it is possible to infer and suggest that something has happened without actually being able to prove it, that could be as useful for us as they think it is for them...
Thank you for confirming that we can't bring anything else into play on the day.
I had been reading / watching what appeared to be American sites, which seemed to be suggesting one can get the person being cross-examined to refer to something in order for you to bring something out to disprove it, so perhaps it is different over there. (Or perhaps I'm just reading it wrong and they were referring to documents already submitted as evidence!)
Does that mean it is impossible to have documents 'in your back pocket' to use to refute claims or questions they might make at the hearing, that you didn't file originally because you didn't expect them to include anything related to that issue in their submission??
Thank you for the DM, I'll come back to you shortly
The order says that the C120 template 'may' be used for Witness Statements, so it looks like we have options.
I am struggling, though, as to how much detail to put into a Witness Statement / C120 / Scott Schedule - too much detail and it might not get read / her and the Barrister will know exactly what we are going to argue and question about (and therefore can prepare careful responses) / we might not have anything to question about on the day?? - but too little detail and we'd be reliant on trying to get our point across and draw out issues in questioning, which I am not confident we could do.
Or is the point of cross-examination to add weight to the framing you've put on the arguments in your submission, by asking questions in a way that the other side can only agree with your framing and/or put themselves deeper into a hole?
re: the previous hearing's documents from years ago now, I don't believe they ever went as far as FF because she steamrollered him with legal representation and the evidence base to support his position was not yet available.
I was wondering if we could use some of the documentation she submitted against him that time round, and use it to support our arguments against her this time round?? It would be the sort of stuff GDPR would not enable us to get if we directly asked third parties for it now, so I'm aware it is potentially dangerous to drag up the past / use that information...
RSTurboPaul said:
I had not twigged about the not needing to show 'beyond reasonable doubt'! but it does ring a bell now you mention it.
If it is possible to infer and suggest that something has happened without actually being able to prove it, that could be as useful for us as they think it is for them...
Thank you for confirming that we can't bring anything else into play on the day.
I had been reading / watching what appeared to be American sites, which seemed to be suggesting one can get the person being cross-examined to refer to something in order for you to bring something out to disprove it, so perhaps it is different over there. (Or perhaps I'm just reading it wrong and they were referring to documents already submitted as evidence!)
Does that mean it is impossible to have documents 'in your back pocket' to use to refute claims or questions they might make at the hearing, that you didn't file originally because you didn't expect them to include anything related to that issue in their submission??
Thank you for the DM, I'll come back to you shortly
The order says that the C120 template 'may' be used for Witness Statements, so it looks like we have options.
I am struggling, though, as to how much detail to put into a Witness Statement / C120 / Scott Schedule - too much detail and it might not get read / her and the Barrister will know exactly what we are going to argue and question about (and therefore can prepare careful responses) / we might not have anything to question about on the day?? - but too little detail and we'd be reliant on trying to get our point across and draw out issues in questioning, which I am not confident we could do.
Or is the point of cross-examination to add weight to the framing you've put on the arguments in your submission, by asking questions in a way that the other side can only agree with your framing and/or put themselves deeper into a hole?
re: the previous hearing's documents from years ago now, I don't believe they ever went as far as FF because she steamrollered him with legal representation and the evidence base to support his position was not yet available.
I was wondering if we could use some of the documentation she submitted against him that time round, and use it to support our arguments against her this time round?? It would be the sort of stuff GDPR would not enable us to get if we directly asked third parties for it now, so I'm aware it is potentially dangerous to drag up the past / use that information...
I’m back in my phone now, so apologies if I miss any of your questions. If it is possible to infer and suggest that something has happened without actually being able to prove it, that could be as useful for us as they think it is for them...
Thank you for confirming that we can't bring anything else into play on the day.
I had been reading / watching what appeared to be American sites, which seemed to be suggesting one can get the person being cross-examined to refer to something in order for you to bring something out to disprove it, so perhaps it is different over there. (Or perhaps I'm just reading it wrong and they were referring to documents already submitted as evidence!)
Does that mean it is impossible to have documents 'in your back pocket' to use to refute claims or questions they might make at the hearing, that you didn't file originally because you didn't expect them to include anything related to that issue in their submission??
Thank you for the DM, I'll come back to you shortly
The order says that the C120 template 'may' be used for Witness Statements, so it looks like we have options.
I am struggling, though, as to how much detail to put into a Witness Statement / C120 / Scott Schedule - too much detail and it might not get read / her and the Barrister will know exactly what we are going to argue and question about (and therefore can prepare careful responses) / we might not have anything to question about on the day?? - but too little detail and we'd be reliant on trying to get our point across and draw out issues in questioning, which I am not confident we could do.
Or is the point of cross-examination to add weight to the framing you've put on the arguments in your submission, by asking questions in a way that the other side can only agree with your framing and/or put themselves deeper into a hole?
re: the previous hearing's documents from years ago now, I don't believe they ever went as far as FF because she steamrollered him with legal representation and the evidence base to support his position was not yet available.
I was wondering if we could use some of the documentation she submitted against him that time round, and use it to support our arguments against her this time round?? It would be the sort of stuff GDPR would not enable us to get if we directly asked third parties for it now, so I'm aware it is potentially dangerous to drag up the past / use that information...
Re. Evidence, that’s correct. Everything has to be on the table and submitted before court. I appreciate its big pressure to ensure that you have included all relevant evidence to prove your point/have a come back to their points. Don’t forget though, you will see all their responses to the section 7 before going into court, so there shouldn’t be anything massively surprising on the hearing day.
Witness statement - put the most relevant points first and the points that are supported with most evidence. The whole statement gives an overview of all the issues, background of the issues, what you’ve done to try and solve them etc
Scott schedule - completely fact based. Hopefully it will be clear when I send you the template. But you are looking at fully evidenced specific incidents. For example - on X date, child was returned after weekend with mother and had bruising on legs, child states it was from being hit by mother. You’d then reference it in evidence.
Cross examination is there to essentially prove who is lying. I won’t lie, it’s not pleasant. It’s hard to give specific advice without knowing all the facts, claims etc as I’m not sure what lines of questioning their barrister will likely go down.
Re, previously submitted docs. It sounds like they can be used again.
On the face of it, you can potentially use what she submitted previously against her, I say potentially as it will depend on specifically what the evidence is, does it involve anyone outside of the court hearing etc. Also is there a danger that if you did introduce it that further previously unseen evidence around the issue could be bought up?
Think this is called parental alienation and courts are missing it all the time, or denying that it is causing harm, if it is the mum perpetrating it.
It is caused by cognitive dissonance of having loved strongly then not being able to put the breakup behind them for the good of the child.
Had a fairly mild case in the big scheme of things with my mum when my dad was b
ksing about on the drink and they separated permanantly, I tolerated her denigrating him a bit, as to be fair, he was a complete disaster case, but I had to read the riot act to her that I wasn't going to stand for her saying it, even if it was mostly true.
While it shouldn't be true, as my mum was very good to me, I always had a better relationship with my dad, especiallly after he stopped the drink and tried to make amends, than I had with my mum. I resented being manipulated and I resented the sly digs about him, even after many years of being apart. Know this, kids aren't stupid, they eventually work things out for themselves and it usually works out to the detriment of the parent doing the parental alienation.
I know your just helping but I'd:
Plea for the Parental Alienation to stop.
Plea for your daughter's right to know her whole family without having to compartmentalise themselves to avoid upsetting the other parent. Plea that false allegations against you hurt your child, more than they do you.
Good luck, my mate in Australia is have a torrid time, lots of false allegations all won after 5+ hearings, and broken courts orders ++ with no sanctions taken on the female side (no scrutiny as all behind closed doors), making a mockery of systems put in place to safeguard genuine domestic abuse victims. 2+ years without seeing his 3 kids, with mum brainwashing them against him. It's no wonder the suicide rate of these men are so high.
Parents who weaponise child custody after a relationship breakdown should be jailed. Give them training if needs be, so they understand how they are messing with fragile minds of children, but jail time if they are found to be using the child to get at the other parent.
It is caused by cognitive dissonance of having loved strongly then not being able to put the breakup behind them for the good of the child.
Had a fairly mild case in the big scheme of things with my mum when my dad was b
ksing about on the drink and they separated permanantly, I tolerated her denigrating him a bit, as to be fair, he was a complete disaster case, but I had to read the riot act to her that I wasn't going to stand for her saying it, even if it was mostly true.While it shouldn't be true, as my mum was very good to me, I always had a better relationship with my dad, especiallly after he stopped the drink and tried to make amends, than I had with my mum. I resented being manipulated and I resented the sly digs about him, even after many years of being apart. Know this, kids aren't stupid, they eventually work things out for themselves and it usually works out to the detriment of the parent doing the parental alienation.
I know your just helping but I'd:
Plea for the Parental Alienation to stop.
Plea for your daughter's right to know her whole family without having to compartmentalise themselves to avoid upsetting the other parent. Plea that false allegations against you hurt your child, more than they do you.
Good luck, my mate in Australia is have a torrid time, lots of false allegations all won after 5+ hearings, and broken courts orders ++ with no sanctions taken on the female side (no scrutiny as all behind closed doors), making a mockery of systems put in place to safeguard genuine domestic abuse victims. 2+ years without seeing his 3 kids, with mum brainwashing them against him. It's no wonder the suicide rate of these men are so high.
Parents who weaponise child custody after a relationship breakdown should be jailed. Give them training if needs be, so they understand how they are messing with fragile minds of children, but jail time if they are found to be using the child to get at the other parent.
The issue is here, I can't offer much more in the way of advice without knowing significantly more detail which you obviously can't share on a public forum. For reference I'm not a solicitor but I am a qualified social worker and have written Section 7 reports and given evidence.
My advice to you would be to engage a solicitor even if its for some preliminary advice and then you go it alone after that.
I would be happy to have telephone conversation with you to talk you through the process around how a contested hearing works, everybody thinks it's like Hollywood but it isn't. I would also be willing to have a look over your bundle to see what the contested elements will be.
My advice to you would be to engage a solicitor even if its for some preliminary advice and then you go it alone after that.
I would be happy to have telephone conversation with you to talk you through the process around how a contested hearing works, everybody thinks it's like Hollywood but it isn't. I would also be willing to have a look over your bundle to see what the contested elements will be.
RSTurboPaul said:
We have already submitted various things supporting our position pretty strongly, some of which were 'missing' from the bundle put together by her solicitors for the last hearing.....
This may be worth a readhttp://www.johnantell.co.uk/the-other-side-is-prod...
Many thanks for all the replies, gents, they are very much appreciated!
A quick question or two, if I may!
If the Section 7 report is delayed getting to us, does that mean the deadline for responses moves back to allow the same period of time to elapse between receipt and response as specified in the court order?
If the other side submit their response to the court early but don't give it to us, is it bad form to ask for a copy from the court prior to direct exchange of responses? lol (And would the court record it / would the other side know?!)
I'm really not looking forward to this all but everyone's help is giving me some reassurance, which is much needed!
A quick question or two, if I may!
If the Section 7 report is delayed getting to us, does that mean the deadline for responses moves back to allow the same period of time to elapse between receipt and response as specified in the court order?
If the other side submit their response to the court early but don't give it to us, is it bad form to ask for a copy from the court prior to direct exchange of responses?
lol (And would the court record it / would the other side know?!)I'm really not looking forward to this all but everyone's help is giving me some reassurance, which is much needed!
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