Civil Action post NFA
Discussion
) as the judge, perhaps things may not go as hoped.Under what agreement (which may not necessarily be with the owner) were the golf clubs stored on the Warehouse property and was there are record made of this storage ?
Would it be reasonable for an employee to expect the storage of Golf Clubs by the business conducting its normal activities ?
Would it be reasonable for an employee to expect the storage of Golf Clubs by the business conducting its normal activities ?
Edited by NGRhodes on Thursday 23 July 21:36
Did the alleged original owner have permission to leave them in the ware house?
If yes, then let him sue whoever gave him permission for not looking after them.
If no then the ware house manager should charge him storage from last summer. Let's say £20 a week for 50 weeks.
Coincidentally that comes to same value as the goods are allegedly worth!
Once he's paid the storage fees give him the £1000 he wants and every body's happy.!!
If yes, then let him sue whoever gave him permission for not looking after them.
If no then the ware house manager should charge him storage from last summer. Let's say £20 a week for 50 weeks.
Coincidentally that comes to same value as the goods are allegedly worth!
Once he's paid the storage fees give him the £1000 he wants and every body's happy.!!
To make a civil claim there has to a wrong committed.
I cannot see what civil wrong has been committed.
If there is no theft involved there is no claim via a private prosecution in the mags.
I would not pay any money out or replace any clubs.
I would wait for a letter before action to assertain what civil wrong is being claimed.
If I were the owner of the clubs I would be looking at what agreement I had with the owner of the wearhouse or the person who gave authority to the OP to sell them. Not the OP.
The OP had no duty of care to the complainent and acted with the authority of the person discharged with the control of the clubs from what I can see.
I cannot see what civil wrong has been committed.
If there is no theft involved there is no claim via a private prosecution in the mags.
I would not pay any money out or replace any clubs.
I would wait for a letter before action to assertain what civil wrong is being claimed.
If I were the owner of the clubs I would be looking at what agreement I had with the owner of the wearhouse or the person who gave authority to the OP to sell them. Not the OP.
The OP had no duty of care to the complainent and acted with the authority of the person discharged with the control of the clubs from what I can see.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The way it works in law is who was responsible for those clubs?How did they get into that cupboard?
What agreement existed between the owner of the cupboard an the owner of the clubs?
Who did the owner belive was responisible for the clubs safe keeping whilst in the cupboard?
If a person who owns something does not establish who is responsible for the safe keeping of his goods that is his fault no one elses.
Don't ignore any correspondence. Has there been any?
Ask the claimed owner of the clubs "why do you think I am responsible for your loss?" or wait until he writes a letter before action formally stating his grounds for claim as per County Court practice rules require.
kestral said:
The way it works in law is who was responsible for those clubs?
How did they get into that cupboard?
What agreement existed between the owner of the cupboard an the owner of the clubs?
Who did the owner belive was responisible for the clubs safe keeping whilst in the cupboard?
If a person who owns something does not establish who is responsible for the safe keeping of his goods that is his fault no one elses.
Don't ignore any correspondence. Has there been any?
Ask the claimed owner of the clubs "why do you think I am responsible for your loss?" or wait until he writes a letter before action formally stating his grounds for claim as per County Court practice rules require.
Also don't mention potential value/cost of loss at this point, don't offer any kind of compensation.How did they get into that cupboard?
What agreement existed between the owner of the cupboard an the owner of the clubs?
Who did the owner belive was responisible for the clubs safe keeping whilst in the cupboard?
If a person who owns something does not establish who is responsible for the safe keeping of his goods that is his fault no one elses.
Don't ignore any correspondence. Has there been any?
Ask the claimed owner of the clubs "why do you think I am responsible for your loss?" or wait until he writes a letter before action formally stating his grounds for claim as per County Court practice rules require.
OP, your brother should wait for a letter before action, or a small claim court letter.
He should avoid engaging with the third party, anything he says could be potentially used against him, e.g. expressing sympathy, suggesting that it seemed too good to be true, offering some money, etc.
If he says anything at all it should be limited to the facts only - he was employed by the site manager, was asked in the course of his employment to clear the warehouse, in so doing items were found that the site manager gave express authorisation to dispose of, which he did. End of story.
Don’t ignore court correspondence, but ignore his texts etc.
Make sure to document and timeline everything from the start to the present, while it’s fresh. It will be needed if it comes to a witness statement later down the line.
Don’t worry about costs - legal costs aren’t recoverable from the losing party in small claims. He shouldn’t he’da solicitor, the process is straightforward if rather nerve wracking for the uninitiated.
He should avoid engaging with the third party, anything he says could be potentially used against him, e.g. expressing sympathy, suggesting that it seemed too good to be true, offering some money, etc.
If he says anything at all it should be limited to the facts only - he was employed by the site manager, was asked in the course of his employment to clear the warehouse, in so doing items were found that the site manager gave express authorisation to dispose of, which he did. End of story.
Don’t ignore court correspondence, but ignore his texts etc.
Make sure to document and timeline everything from the start to the present, while it’s fresh. It will be needed if it comes to a witness statement later down the line.
Don’t worry about costs - legal costs aren’t recoverable from the losing party in small claims. He shouldn’t he’da solicitor, the process is straightforward if rather nerve wracking for the uninitiated.
Edited by Durzel on Thursday 23 July 23:11
Yes, it could be considered a Letter before Action. It ought to be formal and follow the guidelines for what’s required - see https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/let...
Not that the lack of a letter is fatal to a claim, but the lack of formal compliance with pre-action protocol can be mentioned subsequently.
If it were me I’d simply state the facts, without emotion, sympathy or acceptance of blame. The simple truth is the easiest thing to defend.
I would be surprised if the guy filed a small claim, he’d have to pay a fee to do so (although this can be rolled into the claim amount). There are resources on the Internet that can help with drafting the various responses. See: https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forum...
The key thing is to keep all record of messages etc, particularly correspondence from the site manager authorising the disposal.
Not that the lack of a letter is fatal to a claim, but the lack of formal compliance with pre-action protocol can be mentioned subsequently.
If it were me I’d simply state the facts, without emotion, sympathy or acceptance of blame. The simple truth is the easiest thing to defend.
I would be surprised if the guy filed a small claim, he’d have to pay a fee to do so (although this can be rolled into the claim amount). There are resources on the Internet that can help with drafting the various responses. See: https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forum...
The key thing is to keep all record of messages etc, particularly correspondence from the site manager authorising the disposal.
Just out of interest, has the person claiming ownership proven that the clubs belonged to him with documentary evidence (eg photos of specific markings, purchase receipt or similar) or are they just claiming that the clubs were theirs without any further proof? If they don't have any proof of ownership, could a claim be dismissed as a result?
At the time of the 'disposal' did anyone know who the clubs belonged to?
If so, was this person given notice that if they were not removed within a certain time they would be disposed of?
Was the person who gave him permission to leave the clubs in the warehouse (warehouse manager?) the same person who authorized their disposal?
If so, was this person given notice that if they were not removed within a certain time they would be disposed of?
Was the person who gave him permission to leave the clubs in the warehouse (warehouse manager?) the same person who authorized their disposal?
Quite a lot of facts will need to be established.
Sounds like its some informal arrangement to store items so it legally should be between the owner and the person he agreed it with. And then possibly that individual and the manager who allowed their disposal.
Not even sure if such an informal arrangement could be used in civil court claims either.
But certainly I don't see how the buck can ever stop with your mate.
But best get some legal advice as you can loose such claims by default if you ignore it or do not act properly in your defence.
Sounds like its some informal arrangement to store items so it legally should be between the owner and the person he agreed it with. And then possibly that individual and the manager who allowed their disposal.
Not even sure if such an informal arrangement could be used in civil court claims either.
But certainly I don't see how the buck can ever stop with your mate.
But best get some legal advice as you can loose such claims by default if you ignore it or do not act properly in your defence.
From the information posted on here it's difficult to foresee any circumstances where your brother would be entitled to keep the proceeds from selling somebody else's property without their consent. That's a completely different argument from being guilty of theft.
I'm not saying that the chap making the claim was the real owner, but it is clear that your brother wasn't, and the site manager probably wasn't either, so he couldn't give your brother any valid consent to sell the clubs.
I'm not saying that the chap making the claim was the real owner, but it is clear that your brother wasn't, and the site manager probably wasn't either, so he couldn't give your brother any valid consent to sell the clubs.
I'm not qualified to explain this scenario, but I can tell you one legal matter which, at the time, really irritated me when I was in CID.
The value of an item is 'what it will bring' is how it was told to me. If person A bought an item new, then the second hand value is not related to the original price. It's no good suggesting a percentage of the original cost.
In 'my' case, the receiver of stolen property, in all innocence - honest like, sold the item, he claimed, on a stall in a market. It was on display for a few hours and then an offer was made that was, he felt, the best he could hope for. That was taken as the value of the item. Pointing to items for sale in shop windows is nothing to do with it.
I was told that an auction would have been 'better' for the receiver, but in its absence, the 'best offer' had to do. It would seem, going by what I was told by the reviewing solicitor, that ebay, in essence an auction, defined the value of the items. You might consider having a word with a brief though
In some cases, like gold for instance, there's a value that can be put on an item, but if these clubs were made from gold, that puts a whole different complexion on matters.
Best of luck.
The value of an item is 'what it will bring' is how it was told to me. If person A bought an item new, then the second hand value is not related to the original price. It's no good suggesting a percentage of the original cost.
In 'my' case, the receiver of stolen property, in all innocence - honest like, sold the item, he claimed, on a stall in a market. It was on display for a few hours and then an offer was made that was, he felt, the best he could hope for. That was taken as the value of the item. Pointing to items for sale in shop windows is nothing to do with it.
I was told that an auction would have been 'better' for the receiver, but in its absence, the 'best offer' had to do. It would seem, going by what I was told by the reviewing solicitor, that ebay, in essence an auction, defined the value of the items. You might consider having a word with a brief though
In some cases, like gold for instance, there's a value that can be put on an item, but if these clubs were made from gold, that puts a whole different complexion on matters.
Best of luck.
IANAL
Does the company have anything in the employee handbook (etc.) covering personal items on site? In many cases all personal items are on site at the risk of the owner and only on site for work reasons.
The value of the goods was effectively set by eBay at £220 based on age and condition on the open market. I cannot see how the owner can show otherwise beyond full new retail costs. See above.
The items were disposed of by an employee in the course of his work and on instruction of a manager. Based in this I do not see how the employee has any personal liability for the disposal.
Ethically I think keeping the cash was wrong and this could leave the employee open to a claim for the benefit they received £220 (less selling fees?). Reading through the tread would indicate that this has been offered and refused.
When I have disposed of items through work they have either been donated to charity or sod and the cash retained by the company. I have some cash in my desk from selling some items and this will go toward the Christmas diner.
Does the company have anything in the employee handbook (etc.) covering personal items on site? In many cases all personal items are on site at the risk of the owner and only on site for work reasons.
The value of the goods was effectively set by eBay at £220 based on age and condition on the open market. I cannot see how the owner can show otherwise beyond full new retail costs. See above.
The items were disposed of by an employee in the course of his work and on instruction of a manager. Based in this I do not see how the employee has any personal liability for the disposal.
Ethically I think keeping the cash was wrong and this could leave the employee open to a claim for the benefit they received £220 (less selling fees?). Reading through the tread would indicate that this has been offered and refused.
When I have disposed of items through work they have either been donated to charity or sod and the cash retained by the company. I have some cash in my desk from selling some items and this will go toward the Christmas diner.
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