Discussion
Would the TSR-2 have been a worthwhile plane for the military in hindsight if government at the time hadn't canned it?
I believe the government dropped it due to a combination of incompetence and budget, and then favouring the F-111 instead, only to see that deal fall through. Leaving the role that the military was looking for at the time to be taken up by the Buccaneer and the Phantom.
Hindsight a wonderful thing of course and the cold war didn't break out in to anything that required the use of a supersonic low-level flying nuclear bomber/attack plane, but the military capability was very much compromised with the Vulcan and the Victor at the time especially after the Ruskies had developed a missile system that would have easily shot them down en-route.
The Phantom and the Buccaneer, would they have really been able to complete such a role if needed?
I believe the government dropped it due to a combination of incompetence and budget, and then favouring the F-111 instead, only to see that deal fall through. Leaving the role that the military was looking for at the time to be taken up by the Buccaneer and the Phantom.
Hindsight a wonderful thing of course and the cold war didn't break out in to anything that required the use of a supersonic low-level flying nuclear bomber/attack plane, but the military capability was very much compromised with the Vulcan and the Victor at the time especially after the Ruskies had developed a missile system that would have easily shot them down en-route.
The Phantom and the Buccaneer, would they have really been able to complete such a role if needed?
Many years ago I was speaking to a guy who was heavily involved with it. He was glad to see the back of it, as they just couldn’t see how to sort some of its issues.
There were positives to draw from the knowledge gained by building such an aircraft, but the USA was in the middle of crushing us financially. Together with the Avro Arrow, just wasn’t going to happen.
There were positives to draw from the knowledge gained by building such an aircraft, but the USA was in the middle of crushing us financially. Together with the Avro Arrow, just wasn’t going to happen.
Yertis said:
Popular opinion seems to have swung from "TSR-2 was brilliant. Healey robbed us, the closet commie." to "It was bug-ridden nightmare, good thing it was canned".
Whatever else maybe untrue, it always looks ace.
The F111 was pretty bug ridden at the same stage in it's development. So the truth is somewhere in between.Whatever else maybe untrue, it always looks ace.
As Eric says, it could have been developed into an effective aircraft if the money was available. On the other hand it could have been canned earlier and saved money. Or it could have been less ambitious in the first place which might have been the best option. Or we could have joined forces with the US and made one aircraft instead of the F111 and TSR2.
Cancelling it as after it flew was probably the worst option.
There is footage out there somewhere where this thing shot off from a lightning like a scolded cat, left it for dead.
Also it suffered from harmonics in the landing gear in touch down that caused the pilot to close there eyes (something to do with the frequencies it generated).
They have one at RAF Cosford (or they did when I was stationed there).
Bloody US sold us the F111 at a loss under the proviso we scrapped tsr2.
Also it suffered from harmonics in the landing gear in touch down that caused the pilot to close there eyes (something to do with the frequencies it generated).
They have one at RAF Cosford (or they did when I was stationed there).
Bloody US sold us the F111 at a loss under the proviso we scrapped tsr2.
Max_Torque said:
I always though it looked rather ungainly and gawky, sorry! Little wings, lots of bulky boxy fuselage, a phantom or Tornado look much better proportioned to my eyes......
I think the Jaguar and Buccaneer were the best looking of that era. The TSR2 does look like three different Airfix kits stuck together - early Harrier, Lightning and something else.bad company said:
I was in the RAF in the 1970’s. The pilots were pretty clear that they’d have liked TSR2, the alternatives simply weren’t up to the job.
Of course they did, they're pilots... They love shiny new toys to play with. At no point ever has pilot said no to being offered a new platform that's way faster, more manoeuverable, and more gerry anderson looking than what they're currently flying.
Max_Torque said:
I always though it looked rather ungainly and gawky, sorry! Little wings, lots of bulky boxy fuselage, a phantom or Tornado look much better proportioned to my eyes......
Take a look at the XB-70 with the TSR-2 in your mind. Very ‘of the moment’ and I bet it’d look very menacing at 100ft and 800mph. I’m not keen on judging a military aircraft by its looks. They’re a nasty piece of kit, designed to kill people.
There is a fab documentary about the thing, and it was flawed yes, but really it never stood a chance.
Mountbatten had it in for it and was flouting Buccanneers to the Commonwealth at every opportunity (which is what we realty got to replace it), the F111 was just as flawed and even more expensive.
The plane was built by a conglomerate who could never really agree on anything which was a great base idea, but impossible in practice.
It was expensive yes, but would it have sold? I doubt it, too pricey when you had things like F5, F16, Mirage and Mig round the corner, but you never know, it might have got there early enough to surpass what was round at the time, namely huge bombers.
And look at the Yanks now they use a very similar thing still as a stand off bomber the B1, but they also still use Buffs so maybe we are all wrong.
The awful bit is the way it was handled when the last nail was hammered, all the air-frames scrapped, the jigs burned, No idea why and still now no-one can answer why.
But the basics were staggering, it was years ahead of its time, beautiful, capable surely destined for greatness.
Mountbatten had it in for it and was flouting Buccanneers to the Commonwealth at every opportunity (which is what we realty got to replace it), the F111 was just as flawed and even more expensive.
The plane was built by a conglomerate who could never really agree on anything which was a great base idea, but impossible in practice.
It was expensive yes, but would it have sold? I doubt it, too pricey when you had things like F5, F16, Mirage and Mig round the corner, but you never know, it might have got there early enough to surpass what was round at the time, namely huge bombers.
And look at the Yanks now they use a very similar thing still as a stand off bomber the B1, but they also still use Buffs so maybe we are all wrong.
The awful bit is the way it was handled when the last nail was hammered, all the air-frames scrapped, the jigs burned, No idea why and still now no-one can answer why.
But the basics were staggering, it was years ahead of its time, beautiful, capable surely destined for greatness.
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