Why are the Lib Dems not more popular?
Discussion
This really isn’t a promo post for the Lib Dems but a genuine theme for debate.
If we look subjectively at the UK, we find a genetic disposition towards capitalism. For example, The Royal Navy was not established for anything so noble as to protect our people or even our sovereign – it was intended to protect our merchants. Napoleon was bang on when he said we’re a nation of shopkeepers. So, we embrace free market capitalism and personal endeavour.
But at the same time, we’re a (largely) nice and decent bunch. We recognise that not everyone is blessed with the opportunity for self-fulfilment and even those that are, sometimes fall upon hard-times and need a hand. We’re the world’s most charitable nation and would rather people be happy than sad.
All this keeps us – politically – along a narrow centre line but weighted generally towards the right rather than the left.
So, given this, why has Liberalism never really been a thing here?
The definition of Liberalism (and I’m quoting from Wikipedia) is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.
There’s little in this mix that too many (particularly on PH) would, I think, disagree with.
I know that someone’s going to post that photo of those local lib-dems looking like they need to be on a register of some sort, but that aside, what is it that is preventing them from becoming a viable government for what is, really, a liberal-minded country? Or are we?
Off you go!.....
If we look subjectively at the UK, we find a genetic disposition towards capitalism. For example, The Royal Navy was not established for anything so noble as to protect our people or even our sovereign – it was intended to protect our merchants. Napoleon was bang on when he said we’re a nation of shopkeepers. So, we embrace free market capitalism and personal endeavour.
But at the same time, we’re a (largely) nice and decent bunch. We recognise that not everyone is blessed with the opportunity for self-fulfilment and even those that are, sometimes fall upon hard-times and need a hand. We’re the world’s most charitable nation and would rather people be happy than sad.
All this keeps us – politically – along a narrow centre line but weighted generally towards the right rather than the left.
So, given this, why has Liberalism never really been a thing here?
The definition of Liberalism (and I’m quoting from Wikipedia) is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law. Liberals generally support free markets, free trade, limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.
There’s little in this mix that too many (particularly on PH) would, I think, disagree with.
I know that someone’s going to post that photo of those local lib-dems looking like they need to be on a register of some sort, but that aside, what is it that is preventing them from becoming a viable government for what is, really, a liberal-minded country? Or are we?
Off you go!.....
They could have been a contender, however their “b
ks to Brexit” slogan immediately alienated the majority of voters and the leader acted like a 6th form head girl, becoming increasingly childish as the campaign continued.
Whoever was running the campaign must have been a mole for it to be so destructive.
ks to Brexit” slogan immediately alienated the majority of voters and the leader acted like a 6th form head girl, becoming increasingly childish as the campaign continued.Whoever was running the campaign must have been a mole for it to be so destructive.
Probably as to have a middle ground you require both left and right.
In doing so the traditional right is one that creates wealth at the expense if others.
It's very much ideology that people want the nice things in life and some are happy to work for it.
The middle ground just isnt as attractive enough for enough of a majority, as even those right leaning people have helped create a society where in general terms nearly everybody has access to healthcare and some of the nice things in life.
In doing so the traditional right is one that creates wealth at the expense if others.
It's very much ideology that people want the nice things in life and some are happy to work for it.
The middle ground just isnt as attractive enough for enough of a majority, as even those right leaning people have helped create a society where in general terms nearly everybody has access to healthcare and some of the nice things in life.
Einion Yrth said:
At root I think that it's because, as currently constituted, they are neither Liberal nor democratic.
That. The classical liberals mostly aren't there anymore and what's left is people who didn't think Corbyn was left wing enough, some very earnest social workers and that Tim bloke.How about we start here.....
Once upon a time... the Lib Dems wanted a real referendum on Europe.
The pestered, the bleated... God it was incessant.. they wanted a referendum.
I am sure it did not escape your notice... but we had one. And..... they lost.
Being such jolly good sports and good eggs and snappy dressers - they decided they wanted a "people's vote". ( If you want to subvert democracy - give it a catchy name - so the dumb can latch onto it )
And... they saw that the electorate were having none of it.....
So... they came up with this little gem "If we get into Government - we will stop Brexit without a People's vote" ( Knowing that you only need about 30% +/- of the vote to get into Govt. Much easier than trying to get 50% +1 in a referendum )
And even not content with how the electorate voted... They still tell us we are wrong..... and tried to stop Brexit in the HOC and HOL.
And even today - they are still at it..... ignoring democracy.
Why are they unpopular?
When they are wrong... they do not listen and understand that they are wrong.
It is just more of "We aren't getting our message over effectively."
If there was ever a party that is anti-democratic - it is the Lib Dems.
I don't think in my lifetime they will ever serve office.
And for good measure.... remember....free University tuition.
A pox on all of them.
Edit.. And if you want a simple graphic to show how stupid their leadership team is...
To really stop Brexit... all they had to do was 1 thing.
Instead we have a dumb bint who claimed she was our "next prime minister"
Anyone remember the Hoover free flights fiasco?
The Libdems are similar. Free Uni Tuition and Anti Democracy. It will never be forgotten.
Once upon a time... the Lib Dems wanted a real referendum on Europe.
The pestered, the bleated... God it was incessant.. they wanted a referendum.
I am sure it did not escape your notice... but we had one. And..... they lost.
Being such jolly good sports and good eggs and snappy dressers - they decided they wanted a "people's vote". ( If you want to subvert democracy - give it a catchy name - so the dumb can latch onto it )
And... they saw that the electorate were having none of it.....
So... they came up with this little gem "If we get into Government - we will stop Brexit without a People's vote" ( Knowing that you only need about 30% +/- of the vote to get into Govt. Much easier than trying to get 50% +1 in a referendum )
And even not content with how the electorate voted... They still tell us we are wrong..... and tried to stop Brexit in the HOC and HOL.
And even today - they are still at it..... ignoring democracy.
Why are they unpopular?
When they are wrong... they do not listen and understand that they are wrong.
It is just more of "We aren't getting our message over effectively."
If there was ever a party that is anti-democratic - it is the Lib Dems.
I don't think in my lifetime they will ever serve office.
And for good measure.... remember....free University tuition.
A pox on all of them.
Edit.. And if you want a simple graphic to show how stupid their leadership team is...
To really stop Brexit... all they had to do was 1 thing.
Instead we have a dumb bint who claimed she was our "next prime minister"
Anyone remember the Hoover free flights fiasco?
The Libdems are similar. Free Uni Tuition and Anti Democracy. It will never be forgotten.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 4th August 22:52
Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 4th August 22:55
I believe they are not popular because they are no longer liberal.
They are social democrats.
The old liberal party still exists and has a few councillors around the country ( http://liberal.org.uk/ ) ; the old liberal party constitution and 2019 manifesto is far more inline with the traditions of the liberal movement in the UK than the Liberal Democrat 2019 manifesto.
I think there is a place in politics for a proper liberal party, the Lib Dem’s are not it.
They are social democrats.
The old liberal party still exists and has a few councillors around the country ( http://liberal.org.uk/ ) ; the old liberal party constitution and 2019 manifesto is far more inline with the traditions of the liberal movement in the UK than the Liberal Democrat 2019 manifesto.
I think there is a place in politics for a proper liberal party, the Lib Dem’s are not it.
I live in an area where anything blue was voted in regardless, this for both national and local elections.
The last locals, the libdems got two of their guys in for my area. The change was immediate and positive. The tory council had increased the number of closed meetings, and the libdems reported on them and now there's not so many.
The tories, together with the lazy s-o-a-b MP, pushed major refurbishment of the town centre. It ran into difficulties. The much used by locals hall was demolished and no replacement offiered and the purpose-built library in larger premises was at first abandoned but after a lot of pressure, some of which came from the libdems, we got a converted shop as a library. It's smaller but it's a library.
There was a fair bit of resentment locally. Since Covid and the lockdown, the promised great enlightenment that was going to be our town centre is likely to mean an abandoned building site where the old library and hall were, the old Iceland building remains empty and it's moved to a different site away from teh centre.
The cost of all this, and the attitude of the local council, is likely to cost them more seats.
The libdems have been asking what the voters want, and pushing for it. They seem to care. They seem to know that the voters take a bit of interest for a change.
This is what the old liberal party used to do, and it worked quite well. A good local team generated support at GEs. The libdems are already the second party, albeit a fair way down, but the next GE, with brexit no longer a factor, other than something to blame for the poor financial situation we'll be in, will show whether the old methods still work.
The last locals, the libdems got two of their guys in for my area. The change was immediate and positive. The tory council had increased the number of closed meetings, and the libdems reported on them and now there's not so many.
The tories, together with the lazy s-o-a-b MP, pushed major refurbishment of the town centre. It ran into difficulties. The much used by locals hall was demolished and no replacement offiered and the purpose-built library in larger premises was at first abandoned but after a lot of pressure, some of which came from the libdems, we got a converted shop as a library. It's smaller but it's a library.
There was a fair bit of resentment locally. Since Covid and the lockdown, the promised great enlightenment that was going to be our town centre is likely to mean an abandoned building site where the old library and hall were, the old Iceland building remains empty and it's moved to a different site away from teh centre.
The cost of all this, and the attitude of the local council, is likely to cost them more seats.
The libdems have been asking what the voters want, and pushing for it. They seem to care. They seem to know that the voters take a bit of interest for a change.
This is what the old liberal party used to do, and it worked quite well. A good local team generated support at GEs. The libdems are already the second party, albeit a fair way down, but the next GE, with brexit no longer a factor, other than something to blame for the poor financial situation we'll be in, will show whether the old methods still work.
I forgot to add, neither of the leadership candidates are liberal.
Ed Davey is not a liberal and Layla Moran is a classic social democrat.
I don’t think there are any true liberal mps in the party, Tim Farron is probably the most liberal of the lot of them. He gets a lot of flack for his Christian belief, but in fairness he says I am free to believe in biblical Christianity but I also believe in your freedom to do as you wish and not to comform to my view or the states - that is liberalism in a nutshell.
Essentially we don’t have to accept each other’s beliefs/ideas/views but by all means we must respect the right to have them and the right to air free from the state,
But let’s not forget, some of Farrons voting record especially on the EU and the economy is not liberal in the slightest.
Ed Davey is not a liberal and Layla Moran is a classic social democrat.
I don’t think there are any true liberal mps in the party, Tim Farron is probably the most liberal of the lot of them. He gets a lot of flack for his Christian belief, but in fairness he says I am free to believe in biblical Christianity but I also believe in your freedom to do as you wish and not to comform to my view or the states - that is liberalism in a nutshell.
Essentially we don’t have to accept each other’s beliefs/ideas/views but by all means we must respect the right to have them and the right to air free from the state,
But let’s not forget, some of Farrons voting record especially on the EU and the economy is not liberal in the slightest.
Derek Smith said:
A good local team generated support at GEs. The libdems are already the second party, albeit a fair way down, but the next GE, with brexit no longer a factor, other than something to blame for the poor financial situation we'll be in, will show whether the old methods still work.
I don't think many people would have an issue with some libdems sorting out when your bins etc get emptied.The issue is when given the opportunity of real power - eg running a country - the demonstrate they are not worthy of anyone's vote.
eg.
Do you really think any child who heard - "Free Uni Education".... then get stiffed with a £30K bill - will ever vote Libdem?
Do you really think anyone who wanted to leave the EU... and has witnessed the LibDem antics to subvert democracy will ever vote Libdem?
The Lib Dems may be trusted will council..... dog poo collection and wheelie bins - but they are toxic to the majority of the electorate on national matters.
Sophisticated Sarah said:
They could have been a contender, however their “bks to Brexit” slogan immediately alienated the majority of voters and the leader acted like a 6th form head girl, becoming increasingly childish as the campaign continued.
Whoever was running the campaign must have been a mole for it to be so destructive.
Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats ks to Brexit” slogan immediately alienated the majority of voters and the leader acted like a 6th form head girl, becoming increasingly childish as the campaign continued.Whoever was running the campaign must have been a mole for it to be so destructive.
imagine basing a campaign around the popularity of your leader when that person happens to be the most insipid and uninspiring person available for the job!Troubleatmill said:
Derek Smith said:
A good local team generated support at GEs. The libdems are already the second party, albeit a fair way down, but the next GE, with brexit no longer a factor, other than something to blame for the poor financial situation we'll be in, will show whether the old methods still work.
I don't think many people would have an issue with some libdems sorting out when your bins etc get emptied.The issue is when given the opportunity of real power - eg running a country - the demonstrate they are not worthy of anyone's vote.
eg.
Do you really think any child who heard - "Free Uni Education".... then get stiffed with a £30K bill - will ever vote Libdem?
Do you really think anyone who wanted to leave the EU... and has witnessed the LibDem antics to subvert democracy will ever vote Libdem?
The Lib Dems may be trusted will council..... dog poo collection and wheelie bins - but they are toxic to the majority of the electorate on national matters.
ACCYSTAN said:
Troubleatmill said:
Derek Smith said:
A good local team generated support at GEs. The libdems are already the second party, albeit a fair way down, but the next GE, with brexit no longer a factor, other than something to blame for the poor financial situation we'll be in, will show whether the old methods still work.
I don't think many people would have an issue with some libdems sorting out when your bins etc get emptied.The issue is when given the opportunity of real power - eg running a country - the demonstrate they are not worthy of anyone's vote.
eg.
Do you really think any child who heard - "Free Uni Education".... then get stiffed with a £30K bill - will ever vote Libdem?
Do you really think anyone who wanted to leave the EU... and has witnessed the LibDem antics to subvert democracy will ever vote Libdem?
The Lib Dems may be trusted will council..... dog poo collection and wheelie bins - but they are toxic to the majority of the electorate on national matters.
We will never forget the names.
The individuals are anti-democratic - and the internet never forgets.
Edit... for s
ts and giggles...Beanz Meanz Heinz ( Circa 35-40 odd years ago I heard that and still remember )
Hands that do dishes as soft as your face with mild green Fairy liquid ( Yep... drummed into me )
Irn Bru...made in Scotland from girders ( still ingrained )
Lib Dems hate democracy ( Nowhere near as ingrained as the others... but boy it resonates...I could never ever vote for them. They gambled and made their bed. Libdems hate democracy.)
Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 4th August 23:27
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