Discussion
Hi
I just love the looks and sheer ‘Presence’ of the GTR. I must build one. But.
I don’t have enough money!!
I will primarily use it on the road so it will not need to go as fast as it looks.
This is what I had in mind but would appreciate your thoughts. If I get no replies then I will know how abhorrent you have found the proposal.
· Chevy engine. Either new low power (300ish) or second hand.
· Renault gearbox + gearchange
· Salvaged Ford uprights/hubs, new bearings
· Salvaged Ford Scorpio brakes inc. handbrakes and ABS, refurbished
· Salvaged Scorpio power steering + column
· Salvaged Scorpio Drive shafts
· RV Dynamics Bellhousing
· Salvaged Scorpio heater and aircon
Plus any other way to keep the cost down.
I thank you in advance and am at your mercy.
Steve
I just love the looks and sheer ‘Presence’ of the GTR. I must build one. But.
I don’t have enough money!!
I will primarily use it on the road so it will not need to go as fast as it looks.
This is what I had in mind but would appreciate your thoughts. If I get no replies then I will know how abhorrent you have found the proposal.
· Chevy engine. Either new low power (300ish) or second hand.
· Renault gearbox + gearchange
· Salvaged Ford uprights/hubs, new bearings
· Salvaged Ford Scorpio brakes inc. handbrakes and ABS, refurbished
· Salvaged Scorpio power steering + column
· Salvaged Scorpio Drive shafts
· RV Dynamics Bellhousing
· Salvaged Scorpio heater and aircon
Plus any other way to keep the cost down.
I thank you in advance and am at your mercy.
Steve
Steve,
I know where you are at. Not everyone is has the money just lying around. I am only 24 and the though of spending 50-70K+ (dollars) on a car with my budget was a little troubling. I just put my deposit down on a canam. In my case I think it will take me 2 years to put together the parts I ordered, then I'll have to take out a car loan to finish it. My point is you don't have to buy everything at once. Everyone’s build time is limited by the amount of time you can work on it or your budget. In my case it's both.
I don't think you will be happy with the end product if you piece it together with a bunch of non-factory parts. There are plenty of ways to cut cost, used engine, used trans, smaller brakes, cheap gauges, etc. No matter what you do the car is never going to be a cheap project.
I know where you are at. Not everyone is has the money just lying around. I am only 24 and the though of spending 50-70K+ (dollars) on a car with my budget was a little troubling. I just put my deposit down on a canam. In my case I think it will take me 2 years to put together the parts I ordered, then I'll have to take out a car loan to finish it. My point is you don't have to buy everything at once. Everyone’s build time is limited by the amount of time you can work on it or your budget. In my case it's both.
I don't think you will be happy with the end product if you piece it together with a bunch of non-factory parts. There are plenty of ways to cut cost, used engine, used trans, smaller brakes, cheap gauges, etc. No matter what you do the car is never going to be a cheap project.
Having mostly built a GTR I'm sure that building an Ultima on a budget is possible. It would require a *lot* of up front research and even more leg work during the build. Done carefully though you could have a very nice car with a fairly high resale value.
I've opted to get most bits straight from Ultima mainly for the sheer convenience of it. On a budget you have to be very picky though. Some expensive bits are quite cheap for what they are and some cheap bits are not that great value for money.
Granada brakes should be great for 100% legal road use. Do the upgrade to AP Racing kit if you take it to the track later. Using solid brake pipes + your own flexible bits might work out better and cheaper than the factory parts. YMMV.
Don't skimp on the steering. The Ultima bits are *very* high quality and fit perfectly. Your neck depends on it.
DIY on the panelling. With a bit of work you should be able to source all the bits and get them cut on a guillotine for a lot less than the factory prices.
If you are skilled and/or creative then the luggage boxes, heater, instruments, handbrake, gearlinkage and ancilliary greasy bits (oil coolers, catch tanks) are possible areas for improvement and economising.
Fit two filler caps and nobody will know you only bought one fuel tank
(though you can't retro fit them later).
The "uprated" dampers are not a luxury. The factory hardly ever supply the "standard" kit because they are so naff in comparison...the 4+ month lead time doesn't help either (I saw sense and opted for the good ones).
You could get creative with cheaper/narrower wheels. Can always upgrade later...though the sheer joy of watching the expression on friends faces when they see the real thing for the first time cannot be understated!
Get a new engine. American Speed do a cheapish 300bhp with all the extras needed to just drop into an Ultima. If you get a used engine and gearbox then you will have great difficulty avoiding a Q plate. When I spoke to Ted in March he wasn't aware of any GTR on a Q plate...the resale value would be abysmal.
There are loads of bits which you can upgrade once the car is on the road...though in the long run this probably isn't as cheap as getting the right bit in the first place.
At the end of the day though. These cars are not cheap. I would imagine that it would be hard to build a cheap one that wasn't nasty for less than £30k.
If you are under 30 getting insurance is entertaining in the UK
I've opted to get most bits straight from Ultima mainly for the sheer convenience of it. On a budget you have to be very picky though. Some expensive bits are quite cheap for what they are and some cheap bits are not that great value for money.
Granada brakes should be great for 100% legal road use. Do the upgrade to AP Racing kit if you take it to the track later. Using solid brake pipes + your own flexible bits might work out better and cheaper than the factory parts. YMMV.
Don't skimp on the steering. The Ultima bits are *very* high quality and fit perfectly. Your neck depends on it.
DIY on the panelling. With a bit of work you should be able to source all the bits and get them cut on a guillotine for a lot less than the factory prices.
If you are skilled and/or creative then the luggage boxes, heater, instruments, handbrake, gearlinkage and ancilliary greasy bits (oil coolers, catch tanks) are possible areas for improvement and economising.
Fit two filler caps and nobody will know you only bought one fuel tank
(though you can't retro fit them later). The "uprated" dampers are not a luxury. The factory hardly ever supply the "standard" kit because they are so naff in comparison...the 4+ month lead time doesn't help either (I saw sense and opted for the good ones).
You could get creative with cheaper/narrower wheels. Can always upgrade later...though the sheer joy of watching the expression on friends faces when they see the real thing for the first time cannot be understated!
Get a new engine. American Speed do a cheapish 300bhp with all the extras needed to just drop into an Ultima. If you get a used engine and gearbox then you will have great difficulty avoiding a Q plate. When I spoke to Ted in March he wasn't aware of any GTR on a Q plate...the resale value would be abysmal.
There are loads of bits which you can upgrade once the car is on the road...though in the long run this probably isn't as cheap as getting the right bit in the first place.
At the end of the day though. These cars are not cheap. I would imagine that it would be hard to build a cheap one that wasn't nasty for less than £30k.
If you are under 30 getting insurance is entertaining in the UK
I would add to this thread that the Renault box is defineately not a good idea. Even a 300 bhp motor produces enough torque to rip the gears to pieces. It has a baulky gear change due to the complicated linkage required. To upgrade the internals will cost as much as the G50 in the first place and you still have to buy the adapter plate etc to fit the Renault so go for Porsche from the start.
I agree why go for a renault box when you can pick up a porsche box for so little money, you can the use the starter as well.
I used a 4 speed turbo item. They can be picked up cheaper than the G50's, I got a spare for 400 quid. Don't get any ideas that the 4 speed turbo box's aren't as good, I prefer the ratios in mine (212mph in 4th!) and they are reputed to be stronger.
More of an engineering reat to fit though.
Other areas to save money are by making stuff like the radiator, petrol tanks, interior yourself. Just make sure you have done your homework otherwise it'll end up costing you more!
I used a 4 speed turbo item. They can be picked up cheaper than the G50's, I got a spare for 400 quid. Don't get any ideas that the 4 speed turbo box's aren't as good, I prefer the ratios in mine (212mph in 4th!) and they are reputed to be stronger.
More of an engineering reat to fit though.
Other areas to save money are by making stuff like the radiator, petrol tanks, interior yourself. Just make sure you have done your homework otherwise it'll end up costing you more!
Steve,
It can be done. A lower powered car can be built, and it will still be fast compared to most cars. A rebuilt 350 from ACDelco can be purchased for $1200 here in the states, and comes with a pretty good warranty for that matter. It develops 300ish hp. I'd just purchase the chassis and body, and source everything else that you need! The longest build time is 6 years! Why not go for 10 and break the old record! Building it is part of the fun!
Cheers!
-Mack
It can be done. A lower powered car can be built, and it will still be fast compared to most cars. A rebuilt 350 from ACDelco can be purchased for $1200 here in the states, and comes with a pretty good warranty for that matter. It develops 300ish hp. I'd just purchase the chassis and body, and source everything else that you need! The longest build time is 6 years! Why not go for 10 and break the old record! Building it is part of the fun!
Cheers!
-Mack
I don't think there's such a thing as an inexpensive Ultima. It's expensive just buying the minimum stages, moreso if you import it. I personally don't think it's the type of car you want to skimp on, especially when it comes to safety because of the speeds it's capable of.
It's also important to keep the standards of the marque up.
My first idea before I ordered the car was to find parts locally that would be cheaper, but having seen the majority of the parts I ordered from the factory, I glad I opted to get most of the components from Ultima. Obviously it's easier and cheaper to get parts in the UK, except for maybe the engine. If I were on a limited budget, that's where I would maybe spend less money, therefore less power, therefore a least expensive gearbox. Unless you're going to race it, it'll still have more than enough power for the street.
There's a very high price($$$) to be paid for "Bragging Rights"
Just my thoughts
Jack
It's also important to keep the standards of the marque up.
My first idea before I ordered the car was to find parts locally that would be cheaper, but having seen the majority of the parts I ordered from the factory, I glad I opted to get most of the components from Ultima. Obviously it's easier and cheaper to get parts in the UK, except for maybe the engine. If I were on a limited budget, that's where I would maybe spend less money, therefore less power, therefore a least expensive gearbox. Unless you're going to race it, it'll still have more than enough power for the street.
There's a very high price($$$) to be paid for "Bragging Rights"
Just my thoughts
Jack
quote:
as for the renault box being no good, a certain Mr noble won Quite a few kit car race championships using both renault engine & box
I think you are overlooking the basic fact that the V6 3.0 litre Renault produced half the power and even less torque! Its the Chevy torque that will damage the box. And if you've ever driven cars (not just Ultimas) with the Renault box you can only agree that the change is baulky.
"No such thing as an inexpensive Ultima"
Well, define expensive? A McLaren F1 (which is the only thing that comes close in terms of performance) cost £650,000 new - it make the Ultima the performance car bargain of a lifetime doesn't it!
I started out building my GTR on the basis that I'd keep the budget to a minimum, mainly because of my previous experience with Locost (although, the race car ended up costing about 7k NOT 250 quid!).
However, to coin the phrase "if a job's worth doing" the sheer quality of an Ultima IMHO makes it worthwhile. If you're tight on budget, then plan your build so that you can upgrade parts later on when the funds become available brakes, wheels, engine etc.
To me, the worst thing that you can do, is to build the car and then sell it straight away - I mean, where's the fun in that?!?!?!
What are you paying for after all: looks, performance, a highly (and ongoing) development cycle for something that looks better and goes better than almost ANY supercarn available EVER.
At the end of the day, you pay your money - you take your choice. I'v seen GTR's that I wouldn't give 20k for and others that seem priceless. Take your time, spend wisely and reap the rewards - both in terms of driving pleasure and re-sale. It may take you 6 months or 6 years - it doesn't matter - as long as you build the car tha YOU'RE happy with, then it's a no-brainer.
Well, define expensive? A McLaren F1 (which is the only thing that comes close in terms of performance) cost £650,000 new - it make the Ultima the performance car bargain of a lifetime doesn't it!
I started out building my GTR on the basis that I'd keep the budget to a minimum, mainly because of my previous experience with Locost (although, the race car ended up costing about 7k NOT 250 quid!).
However, to coin the phrase "if a job's worth doing" the sheer quality of an Ultima IMHO makes it worthwhile. If you're tight on budget, then plan your build so that you can upgrade parts later on when the funds become available brakes, wheels, engine etc.
To me, the worst thing that you can do, is to build the car and then sell it straight away - I mean, where's the fun in that?!?!?!
What are you paying for after all: looks, performance, a highly (and ongoing) development cycle for something that looks better and goes better than almost ANY supercarn available EVER.
At the end of the day, you pay your money - you take your choice. I'v seen GTR's that I wouldn't give 20k for and others that seem priceless. Take your time, spend wisely and reap the rewards - both in terms of driving pleasure and re-sale. It may take you 6 months or 6 years - it doesn't matter - as long as you build the car tha YOU'RE happy with, then it's a no-brainer.
quote:
However, to coin the phrase "if a job's worth doing" the sheer quality of an Ultima IMHO makes it worthwhile. If you're tight on budget, then plan your build so that you can upgrade parts later on when the funds become available brakes, wheels, engine etc.
To me, the worst thing that you can do, is to build the car and then sell it straight away - I mean, where's the fun in that?!?!?!
What are you paying for after all: looks, performance, a highly (and ongoing) development cycle for something that looks better and goes better than almost ANY supercarn available EVER.
At the end of the day, you pay your money - you take your choice. I'v seen GTR's that I wouldn't give 20k for and others that seem priceless. Take your time, spend wisely and reap the rewards - both in terms of driving pleasure and re-sale. It may take you 6 months or 6 years - it doesn't matter - as long as you build the car tha YOU'RE happy with, then it's a no-brainer.
Asolutely, right on, Yes, Yes.
Whilst sadly unable to afford an Ultima I do know a fair bit about penny-pinching (you have to when you're skint!) as well as car building, so for what it's worth here's my contribution to this thread.
Renault gearbox. Used by Lotus in Esprit V8, handles 350bhp in that and have to say found gearchange in Sport 350 about best mid-engined shift I've ever used. Also dealt with someone who had beefed up version in back of Lola T70 replica with 500bhp Chevy engine that survived plenty of track work OK. Has also been used in various GT40 replicas over the years so should handle 'cooking' smallblock, though no doubt Porsche box is better.
Small block Chevy V8. Most common engine in world. Even in UK you can pick them up for a few hundred pounds from specialist US car breakers and parts to re-build cost less than for average euro/jap 4-pot. Rebuilding scrap unit has to be cheaper than buying new.
Always the case when building a kit car - the more you can do yourself, the cheaper it's going to be.
Renault gearbox. Used by Lotus in Esprit V8, handles 350bhp in that and have to say found gearchange in Sport 350 about best mid-engined shift I've ever used. Also dealt with someone who had beefed up version in back of Lola T70 replica with 500bhp Chevy engine that survived plenty of track work OK. Has also been used in various GT40 replicas over the years so should handle 'cooking' smallblock, though no doubt Porsche box is better.
Small block Chevy V8. Most common engine in world. Even in UK you can pick them up for a few hundred pounds from specialist US car breakers and parts to re-build cost less than for average euro/jap 4-pot. Rebuilding scrap unit has to be cheaper than buying new.
Always the case when building a kit car - the more you can do yourself, the cheaper it's going to be.
NO LUCK THERE MONDEOMAN, IVE JUST BOUGHT IT MYSELF IM THE THIRD PROUD OWNER OF THIS BOX OF BITS, BUT IT WONT STAY THAT WAY FOR LONG, AND BACK TO THE RENAULT ENGINE & BOX THE GTA 610 THAT ITS OUT OFF, IS GOOD FOR 0-60 IN 5 SECS AND 165MPH IN A SUBSTANTIALLY HEAVIER CAR SO ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
ULTIMAPETER,
I GUESS YOU NO LONGER QUALIFY FOR LONGEST LENGTH OF TIME TO BUILD AN ULTIMA. YOU TECHNICALLY JUST PURCHASED THE KIT!
SORRY ABOUT THAT!
-CHEERS!
-MACK
I GUESS YOU NO LONGER QUALIFY FOR LONGEST LENGTH OF TIME TO BUILD AN ULTIMA. YOU TECHNICALLY JUST PURCHASED THE KIT!
SORRY ABOUT THAT!
-CHEERS!
-MACK
quote:
NO LUCK THERE MONDEOMAN, IVE JUST BOUGHT IT MYSELF IM THE THIRD PROUD OWNER OF THIS BOX OF BITS, BUT IT WONT STAY THAT WAY FOR LONG, AND BACK TO THE RENAULT ENGINE & BOX THE GTA 610 THAT ITS OUT OFF, IS GOOD FOR 0-60 IN 5 SECS AND 165MPH IN A SUBSTANTIALLY HEAVIER CAR SO ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.
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