Reasons why Toyota did so badly in F1
Discussion
They were in F1 as constructor from 2002 until they finaly threw in the towel at the end of 2009.
Their early races I remember always seemed to end in a spectatular fault with smoke everywhere.
For a company so thorough in the work the do and given the depth of knowledge they have in automotive design/manufacturing plus the shedload of money they put in it was a PR disaster that caused them to walk away tail between their legs.
Why do you suppose that was? Poor staff, poor support from HQ, poor driver choice, lack of preperation, understanding etc etc?
I'd be interested to hear others opinions as it's a bit of a mystery to an outsider.
Their early races I remember always seemed to end in a spectatular fault with smoke everywhere.
For a company so thorough in the work the do and given the depth of knowledge they have in automotive design/manufacturing plus the shedload of money they put in it was a PR disaster that caused them to walk away tail between their legs.
Why do you suppose that was? Poor staff, poor support from HQ, poor driver choice, lack of preperation, understanding etc etc?
I'd be interested to hear others opinions as it's a bit of a mystery to an outsider.
In the early years constant blaming of the drivers for the poor performance of the car meaning that there was no consistency in the development of the car and they were embroiled in the espionage saga which took a lot of focus around the same time.
Employing Gascoyne I always thought was a big mistake as his personality isn't one I would say is a natural for the Japanese. They quickly went their separate ways.
Honda were pretty similar as well in their time with occasional flashes but no consistency at all. Toyota should have been well placed for 2009 given that they were the only works team with a double diffuser right from the start but we all know what happened there.
Personally I just don't think the Japanese business culture translates to running an F1 team for some reason.
Employing Gascoyne I always thought was a big mistake as his personality isn't one I would say is a natural for the Japanese. They quickly went their separate ways.
Honda were pretty similar as well in their time with occasional flashes but no consistency at all. Toyota should have been well placed for 2009 given that they were the only works team with a double diffuser right from the start but we all know what happened there.
Personally I just don't think the Japanese business culture translates to running an F1 team for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJvJ_jdfPk
Personally, don't really like the bashing of the 'Toyota Way' or Japanese culture being ill suited to F1. Corporate interference of any kind is never good. F1 is far too dynamic and fast paced and is the complete opposite of how consumer car companies operate who have time on their side.
For various reasons they've never made great cars despite having an excellent wind tunnel that has long been used by other F1 teams - even McLaren - long after Toyota folded.
It would have been band aid but would have lifted the spirits of the team and perhaps spur them on if they managed to employ a hot shot young gun driving for them rather than have a safe driver line up.
Personally, don't really like the bashing of the 'Toyota Way' or Japanese culture being ill suited to F1. Corporate interference of any kind is never good. F1 is far too dynamic and fast paced and is the complete opposite of how consumer car companies operate who have time on their side.
For various reasons they've never made great cars despite having an excellent wind tunnel that has long been used by other F1 teams - even McLaren - long after Toyota folded.
It would have been band aid but would have lifted the spirits of the team and perhaps spur them on if they managed to employ a hot shot young gun driving for them rather than have a safe driver line up.
SImply put, you cannot succeed in F1 when applying corporate decision making. Most successful F1 teams have a single, patriachal figure who has a mandate to deliver performance and results 'whatever it takes' and so can make decisions and action them quickly. This is the antithesis of how the corporation operates.
They were also up against one of the most dominant team and driver pairings in history, so hardly fair to call them a failure, i think they did pretty well all things considered.
I think employing Ralf was a mistake (but you could see why they did) he was fine early on but then became a sort of Irvineesque walking pay cheque, their later drivers were not much kop either, Trulli was just a pole fiend, and Glock not much kop either.
Would love to have seen a Kubica or Webber in the car, but I think they just never quite got to the point were they looked like winning, bit like Sauber really. Very similar in fact.
I think employing Ralf was a mistake (but you could see why they did) he was fine early on but then became a sort of Irvineesque walking pay cheque, their later drivers were not much kop either, Trulli was just a pole fiend, and Glock not much kop either.
Would love to have seen a Kubica or Webber in the car, but I think they just never quite got to the point were they looked like winning, bit like Sauber really. Very similar in fact.
Stig said:
SImply put, you cannot succeed in F1 when applying corporate decision making. Most successful F1 teams have a single, patriachal figure who has a mandate to deliver performance and results 'whatever it takes' and so can make decisions and action them quickly. This is the antithesis of how the corporation operates.
Yes, it’s difficult for larger corporates to operate in prototype series, simply because here’s a constant need to make decisions and implement them at speed. You basically have to follow the Mercedes F1 model, of choosing a team leader and then empowing them to pretty much get on with it, something that doesn’t sit well with the corporate cultures at many large car companies. Of course it helps if, like Mercedes F1, there is success on track, the F1 effort turns a profit and the technology from the engine development is filtering down successfully to the road cars.
Kraken said:
Plenty of large companies have been very successful in car racing from many parts of the world. It's not "bashing" to say that the Japanese appear to do a poorer job of it than other countries.
Japanese car companies have been quite successful at motor sport for a long time, particularly rallying.Which is why Toyota's failure in F1 is interesting.
AW111 said:
Kraken said:
Plenty of large companies have been very successful in car racing from many parts of the world. It's not "bashing" to say that the Japanese appear to do a poorer job of it than other countries.
Japanese car companies have been quite successful at motor sport for a long time, particularly rallying.Which is why Toyota's failure in F1 is interesting.
Interestingly VAG who through VW, Skoda, Porsche and Audi have also been very good at Rallying and Endurance racing have never really even tried to have a go at F1 despite presumably having the resources to do so ... which suggests to me it's not just a Japanese thing.
Yes, I can understand that having patriachal figure who can make decisions and turn things around without much paperwork/meetings would be critical to the fast pace of F1 when problems occur on an hour by hour basis.
Howeve, I can't imagine that they would not have known this and listed it on the must haves when building the team (along with good engineers and good wind tunnel etc).
Maybe this was their mistake and they missed that part?
Howeve, I can't imagine that they would not have known this and listed it on the must haves when building the team (along with good engineers and good wind tunnel etc).
Maybe this was their mistake and they missed that part?
entropy said:
Very interesting - thanks for linking this.Muzzer79 said:
Culturally wrong.
Based in the wrong location.
Struggled to attract talent in all areas.
Tried to do it 'their' way, rather than the way which would see them win.
This, really. Based in the wrong location.
Struggled to attract talent in all areas.
Tried to do it 'their' way, rather than the way which would see them win.
Most of the talent is in the UK, given the close proximity the teams are to each other. While Cologne is lovely it's not a sexy place to live. Then again neither is Northampton!
I worked on a project for a Japanese company, and it was always painful to get buy in to an idea or to get approval for a change. You would sit in these meetings and you'd speak in English, they would reply, then they'd speak in Japanese and then there'd be silence. The silence was a queue to move on to the next topic.
I'm sure if a Japanese team, based in Japan with a Japanese workforce, would do well in F1. But I don't think Japanese and Europeans work efficiently together.
sgtBerbatov said:
Muzzer79 said:
Culturally wrong.
Based in the wrong location.
Struggled to attract talent in all areas.
Tried to do it 'their' way, rather than the way which would see them win.
This, really. Based in the wrong location.
Struggled to attract talent in all areas.
Tried to do it 'their' way, rather than the way which would see them win.
Most of the talent is in the UK, given the close proximity the teams are to each other. While Cologne is lovely it's not a sexy place to live. Then again neither is Northampton!
I worked on a project for a Japanese company, and it was always painful to get buy in to an idea or to get approval for a change. You would sit in these meetings and you'd speak in English, they would reply, then they'd speak in Japanese and then there'd be silence. The silence was a queue to move on to the next topic.
I'm sure if a Japanese team, based in Japan with a Japanese workforce, would do well in F1. But I don't think Japanese and Europeans work efficiently together.
It still is, arguably the 'vegas' of Germany.
I digress. No, Japenese culture and European culture don't easily mix. When Europeans bend over backwards to understand what motivates the Japanese there are results. If Europeans simply expect a Japanese result - they won't get one. Even if the Europeans in question are bankrolled by the Japanese in the first place. I worked all over the world before I was finally humbled by the Japanese - clever sods, and it's a tricky balance to have tech talk with people that you suspect are even better at the tech but also motivated by nothing as temporary or modern as the technology in question.
Amazingly Horner of all people seems to be getting the best out of them these days!?
Kraken said:
Plenty of large companies have been very successful in car racing from many parts of the world. It's not "bashing" to say that the Japanese appear to do a poorer job of it than other countries.
FoMoCo did an excellent when they took over Stewart GP, didn't they? Their success in international motorsport came off the back of Lola (GT40/LM) and Cosworth (DFV/F1).Why did Ferrari underachieve post-Todt? Luca Di Montezemolo pressed the self-destruct button by interfering by instilling a blame culture and sacking staff at his behest; Todt tried to instill a political free environment and Brawn tried to instill confidence in the Italian rank & file workforce.
Alfa Romeo in the 1980s were every as bit as bad as Toyota.
Very, very few manufacturers who operated as an F1 constructor have been successful whereas there has been a greater chance of succcess. The ones that have had generally minimal corporate interference. Better off being an engine manufacturer.
sgtBerbatov said:
Most of the talent is in the UK, given the close proximity the teams are to each other. While Cologne is lovely it's not a sexy place to live. Then again neither is Northampton!
The surrounding villages are much nicer. Saying that, AMG moved out of Brixworth's industrial estate!Of course the UK has savoir-faire and a wealth of knowledge but what about Sauber? Switzerland, of all places, has a ban on motorsports! They had a rated facilities such as their wind tunnel and weren't they one of the first F1 teams to investing in CFD? When BMW took over updates were ramped up and generally worked.
Or is Sauber just an anomaly?
sgtBerbatov said:
I worked on a project for a Japanese company, and it was always painful to get buy in to an idea or to get approval for a change. You would sit in these meetings and you'd speak in English, they would reply, then they'd speak in Japanese and then there'd be silence. The silence was a queue to move on to the next topic.
I'm sure if a Japanese team, based in Japan with a Japanese workforce, would do well in F1. But I don't think Japanese and Europeans work efficiently together.
What about Honda in the 80s?I'm sure if a Japanese team, based in Japan with a Japanese workforce, would do well in F1. But I don't think Japanese and Europeans work efficiently together.
Is it because becoming a constructor involves greater money, greater responsibility and therefore greater scrutiny?
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