EV 101 questions
Discussion
I'd like to start a thread about how usable EVs are in 2020 and what ownership is like. Hopefully people that own one can give their 2 pence.
I do not own an EV. I am not against EVs. I usually argue that while EVs probably work out for most people, there are still use cases today that EVs are not yet suitable for.
That said, I'd like to propose 2 things for this thread:
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I do not own an EV. I am not against EVs. I usually argue that while EVs probably work out for most people, there are still use cases today that EVs are not yet suitable for.
That said, I'd like to propose 2 things for this thread:
- If you own an EV, it would be helpful if you can explain why it works for you, what your use case is (what you use it for) and why you decided to buy it. What is ownership like?
- I want to do an experiment. I will get a Tesla Model 3 for about 1 - 2 weeks and use it instead of my current car. I will write about it after.
- Everyone talks about range. For me this is quite irrelevant. What seems more relevant is the way in which you get the range back, because at some point, no matter how much range the car has, it will run out. For me the way you get range back in an EV is the problem. If you do not have access to home-charging this can be even more problematic can't it? Obviously most people are fine planning out how to keep the car charged, but for me and perhaps others this is kind of a big deal (depending on job, lifestyle etc). I do not want to plan anything. I want to be able to drive anywhere, whenever I want, for however long I want without planning anything. I somewhat (probably wrongly in the grand scheme of things) that this is a regression from the freedoms a classic ICE car offers today.
- I find the current range of available EVs uninspiring at best (maybe Tesla is an exception). I always assumed people that treat driving the way I do are in the minority and manufacturers simply do not cater for such targeted groups for now. I'd like to hear people's opinion on this. I'd also like to add that "liking" a car is highly subjective and what I like/dislike can be completely different for others.
. wassap said:
I’ll be very surprised if it remains civilised!
Your comments on range will pretty much come across as negative.
Personally I’m in the ICE camp due to the business miles I do every 2 weeks. That said, I could make a Tesla M3LR work with a bit of planning.
Your comments on range will pretty much come across as negative.
Personally I’m in the ICE camp due to the business miles I do every 2 weeks. That said, I could make a Tesla M3LR work with a bit of planning.
You are probably right about the civilised part but if there is no learning from contributions here what is the point of spending time to write and read stuff here? It's a way to discuss stuff with different people and hopefully some will write something interesting. I hope my comments are not interpreted as negative. I am not free of biases by any means but neither are other people who might feel they need to argue 100% for (or against) EVs. I understand there are positives and negatives with all of these things and I hope everyone else does too. Very rarely is the world black or white, right or wrong.
The idea of being able to drive anywhere whenever you want is great and I can understand you having that feeling as you are so new to driving.
When you have been driving for quite a few years then the reality of how you actually use a car becomes apparent and for most people that rarely, if ever, includes just taking off for a long journey on a whim.
When you have been driving for quite a few years then the reality of how you actually use a car becomes apparent and for most people that rarely, if ever, includes just taking off for a long journey on a whim.
I bought a cheap 6 year old Zoe on a whim last year. It's very much a 1st-gen EV with only 60 miles range in winter and 80 in summer if you drive it like a normal car. Longer ranges are only possible at limited speed with air con/heating off. It only charges on AC and these are becoming outmoded now for public fast charge points and being replaced with DC for modern EVs.
I'm lucky enough to have access to other cars and a home charger.
That being said, it's brilliant. It's a perfect commuter car, very enjoyable to drive in an urban environment. Despite being a cheap tinny car we're using it for everything in preference to our petrol cars and I'm only resorting to petrol for destinations over 50 miles away.
The company I work for has switched over to Tesla 3LR and S for it's whole fleet. We have sites all over the country and staff are regularly doing 500 miles in a day with no issues. I've experienced this myself, a 500 mile day trip with a charge during coffee on the way there and during a McDonalds lunch on the way back. At no point were we sat around waiting for the car, all the charging was done while we were doing something else.
For me, if I owned the current model Zoe with DC-charging and a 200+ mile range then the only time I'd drive a petrol car would be at weekends for fun. All that's stopping me is the fact that my current car is so cheap to own it's practically free and it's not really cramping my style either, so why spend any more?
I'm lucky enough to have access to other cars and a home charger.
That being said, it's brilliant. It's a perfect commuter car, very enjoyable to drive in an urban environment. Despite being a cheap tinny car we're using it for everything in preference to our petrol cars and I'm only resorting to petrol for destinations over 50 miles away.
The company I work for has switched over to Tesla 3LR and S for it's whole fleet. We have sites all over the country and staff are regularly doing 500 miles in a day with no issues. I've experienced this myself, a 500 mile day trip with a charge during coffee on the way there and during a McDonalds lunch on the way back. At no point were we sat around waiting for the car, all the charging was done while we were doing something else.
For me, if I owned the current model Zoe with DC-charging and a 200+ mile range then the only time I'd drive a petrol car would be at weekends for fun. All that's stopping me is the fact that my current car is so cheap to own it's practically free and it's not really cramping my style either, so why spend any more?
Edited by giveitfish on Sunday 23 August 00:13
iulian7 said:
- If you own an EV, it would be helpful if you can explain why it works for you, what your use case is (what you use it for) and why you decided to buy it.
EVs are more expensive than combustion cars, there is less choice of EVs than combustion cars, and yet plenty of people on this forum whom all are Pistonheads have gone down the EV route and never looked back.
If EVs really do make life harder why have so many of us got one?? No one forced any of us to get an EV, and I personally care about global warming as much as the US president.
I was already to buy a M5 or a XJ super sport back in 2015. I was driving a modded 380whp 335i at the time having previously owned a DC2 Teg and 350Z, yet after a test drive in a 80 mile max range Leaf I pretty much lost interest in combustion cars instantly. Yes I chopped in a Quaife equipped 335i with custom tunned Bilestein suspension for a Nissan Leaf out of choice.
For me EVs are simply better cars, they deliver the smoothest power delivery ever, you can refuel them at home, they are fast yet cheap to run, they let you actually enjoy the stereo, for families practicality is massive.
We use our EV as our main family car. Its taken us to France, all over the UK. Its a people mover, skip runner, nursery run, daily driver. Despite all that even after 3.5 years of ownership everytime I get in it I still cannot help but smile. I love it more than any car I have owned before.
Its actually very hard for me to tell you exactly why I love it, but I do. People says EVs are 'soulless' a much harsher criticism than range, all I can say is just look at how heated EV topics get on this forum. 'Soulless' stuff don't get people worked up.
I wouldn't swap our EV for any combustion car on this planet, except for a more expensive one so I could than sell it and buy a Taycan
.So the actual question you have to ask is, why do EV owners love their cars so much?? And the only way to find out is to own one
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Edited by gangzoom on Sunday 23 August 05:45
I went from a pairing of a Macan S Diesel and a CLS 63 AMG to a BMW i3s and a Tesla Model 3 performance late last year, mainly driven by company tax benefits this year and running costs. I wasn’t really interested in EV’s but thought we’d give them a ago. We rarely do long journeys, 90% are 50 miles and under.
As transport they are significantly better than ICE cars, they just work and make ICE feel from a bygone era. I didn’t expect them, especially the Tesla, to be so enjoyable to drive.
We have chargers at home on our drive which ensure a full tank every morning.
I won’t go back to ICE for day to day cars, they just don’t compare imo.
But for a petrolhead experience they will never match an ICE, missing revs, noise, mechanical involvement etc.
But the big thing for me is so many “sporty” cars from the past 10 years also lack that to some extent, with autos/turbos, and noise are lacking from most modern stuff, so for ICE I would look at something older now.
This thread will deteriorate into the usual polarised views which is a shame.
As transport they are significantly better than ICE cars, they just work and make ICE feel from a bygone era. I didn’t expect them, especially the Tesla, to be so enjoyable to drive.
We have chargers at home on our drive which ensure a full tank every morning.
I won’t go back to ICE for day to day cars, they just don’t compare imo.
But for a petrolhead experience they will never match an ICE, missing revs, noise, mechanical involvement etc.
But the big thing for me is so many “sporty” cars from the past 10 years also lack that to some extent, with autos/turbos, and noise are lacking from most modern stuff, so for ICE I would look at something older now.
This thread will deteriorate into the usual polarised views which is a shame.
I have had plenty of nice cars, including several 911s, a Clio V6, 2 x VX220s, a Westfield, an E55, etc and moved to an EV for the same reason as MOBB, and many others, the company car tax incentives.
However, after 8.5 months and 8.5k miles with my first EV, like many on here I love it and have also lost interest in new ICE cars and after 10+ years cancelled my Evo subscription. I do 12k miles per year, mostly around Cornwall and have a drive and a home charger. It has costs me c1.5p per mile in electrity or £127!
I now fully see why we should all be getting EVs if possible and have just sold our family Zafira and am awaiting delivery of another EV for my wife.
I do still have a fun ICE car, an Ariel Atom, in which I do c.3k miles in per year. It is so different from any other car that I still enjoy that, but I just can't see me buying an ICE as an everyday car ever again.
However, after 8.5 months and 8.5k miles with my first EV, like many on here I love it and have also lost interest in new ICE cars and after 10+ years cancelled my Evo subscription. I do 12k miles per year, mostly around Cornwall and have a drive and a home charger. It has costs me c1.5p per mile in electrity or £127!
I now fully see why we should all be getting EVs if possible and have just sold our family Zafira and am awaiting delivery of another EV for my wife.
I do still have a fun ICE car, an Ariel Atom, in which I do c.3k miles in per year. It is so different from any other car that I still enjoy that, but I just can't see me buying an ICE as an everyday car ever again.
Edited by Fastlane on Sunday 23 August 09:21
Bought an eNV200 and an early Leaf over three years ago, simply for the running costs (plus I am over "servicing" ICE cars).
Range on both vehicles is around 60 miles with an 80% charge.
Can't see me ever buying another ICE vehicle in my life.
For the occasional long journey I use a diesel ute for business, or a Honda Logo with 150,000 on the clock for personal.
Next buy will be an EV with either 40 or hopefully 60kWhr battery.
Normal cars seem so outdated and expensive to run now.
For everyone that said they have a home charger - if you didn't have a home charger (e.g. you were renting a flat with no access to a charger) and you didn't have any possibility to charge at your workplace (Covid-19 issues aside), how would this affect the usability of your car? Would you still own one?
Also interesting if anyone owns an EV with no access to a charger at home/work.
Also interesting if anyone owns an EV with no access to a charger at home/work.
Tax was the reason for me.
Swapped a company bmw 520d for an egolf - previous tax at 32%, now 0%. Several hundred a month cheaper.
To drive, it’s nice. Really like instant torque and it’s super smooth.
I’ve not done a major journey in it ( max so far was 100 mile round trip), but 90% of my journeys are under 100 miles anyway, so not really a problem.
In 4 months of ownership (2500 miles) I’ve been fine charging from home and not needed to charge publicly.
We do have a few longer journeys periodically, like uni pick ups, for which we tend to use the Mrs ice car, but the egolf is the default choice for most of our driving.
Would I have got the golf if not a company car tax break? Probably not
Will my next car by an ev? Definitely
Swapped a company bmw 520d for an egolf - previous tax at 32%, now 0%. Several hundred a month cheaper.
To drive, it’s nice. Really like instant torque and it’s super smooth.
I’ve not done a major journey in it ( max so far was 100 mile round trip), but 90% of my journeys are under 100 miles anyway, so not really a problem.
In 4 months of ownership (2500 miles) I’ve been fine charging from home and not needed to charge publicly.
We do have a few longer journeys periodically, like uni pick ups, for which we tend to use the Mrs ice car, but the egolf is the default choice for most of our driving.
Would I have got the golf if not a company car tax break? Probably not
Will my next car by an ev? Definitely
iulian7 said:
For everyone that said they have a home charger - if you didn't have a home charger (e.g. you were renting a flat with no access to a charger) and you didn't have any possibility to charge at your workplace (Covid-19 issues aside), how would this affect the usability of your car? Would you still own one?
Also interesting if anyone owns an EV with no access to a charger at home/work.
I wouldn’t have considered an EV at all without a home charger optionAlso interesting if anyone owns an EV with no access to a charger at home/work.
Sure you can use super chargers etc but I wouldn’t have been interested - home charging is a big upside for me
If the whole premise of this thread is that that electric vehicles are unsuitable for some people, it is a non sequitur to draw the conclusion that ICE vehicles are automatically suitable. It matters *which* car, and the use case.
A diesel Range Rover would be utterly unsuitable for my mum, but a Renault Zoe would be ideal. An F-Type would be completely useless to me, but the E-Tron suits me perfectly. A Honda E is no use to a road warrior who covers the whole country with 30,000 miles per year; that suits a diesel E-class. However, increasingly it might also suit a Model S/3 Long Range, or one of the forthcoming 300+ mile range EVs.
I just don't get this stream of extreme edge cases that people use to try to prove that EVs are useless because they simply MUST drive from Aberdeen to Istanbul once a week without stopping.
We get it, an EV might not work for you right now. Seeking approval or validation of that is just a waste of time.
A diesel Range Rover would be utterly unsuitable for my mum, but a Renault Zoe would be ideal. An F-Type would be completely useless to me, but the E-Tron suits me perfectly. A Honda E is no use to a road warrior who covers the whole country with 30,000 miles per year; that suits a diesel E-class. However, increasingly it might also suit a Model S/3 Long Range, or one of the forthcoming 300+ mile range EVs.
I just don't get this stream of extreme edge cases that people use to try to prove that EVs are useless because they simply MUST drive from Aberdeen to Istanbul once a week without stopping.
We get it, an EV might not work for you right now. Seeking approval or validation of that is just a waste of time.
Scrump said:
The idea of being able to drive anywhere whenever you want is great and I can understand you having that feeling as you are so new to driving.
When you have been driving for quite a few years then the reality of how you actually use a car becomes apparent and for most people that rarely, if ever, includes just taking off for a long journey on a whim.
Sorry I didn't really mention anything about my driving history as it didn't seem relevant to this particular topic (I don't generally talk about my driving in public). I am on the opposite end of the spectrum from new to driving When you have been driving for quite a few years then the reality of how you actually use a car becomes apparent and for most people that rarely, if ever, includes just taking off for a long journey on a whim.
. A handful of people here might recognise me actually - if that's the case, hello . Witchfinder said:
If the whole premise of this thread is that that electric vehicles are unsuitable for some people, it is a non sequitur to draw the conclusion that ICE vehicles are automatically suitable. It matters *which* car, and the use case.
A diesel Range Rover would be utterly unsuitable for my mum, but a Renault Zoe would be ideal. An F-Type would be completely useless to me, but the E-Tron suits me perfectly. A Honda E is no use to a road warrior who covers the whole country with 30,000 miles per year; that suits a diesel E-class. However, increasingly it might also suit a Model S/3 Long Range, or one of the forthcoming 300+ mile range EVs.
I just don't get this stream of extreme edge cases that people use to try to prove that EVs are useless because they simply MUST drive from Aberdeen to Istanbul once a week without stopping.
We get it, an EV might not work for you right now. Seeking approval or validation of that is just a waste of time.
This is in no way the point of the thread, no. It's true suitability doesn't have anything to do with EVs. Any ICE can be just as suitable or unsuitable as in your examples A diesel Range Rover would be utterly unsuitable for my mum, but a Renault Zoe would be ideal. An F-Type would be completely useless to me, but the E-Tron suits me perfectly. A Honda E is no use to a road warrior who covers the whole country with 30,000 miles per year; that suits a diesel E-class. However, increasingly it might also suit a Model S/3 Long Range, or one of the forthcoming 300+ mile range EVs.
I just don't get this stream of extreme edge cases that people use to try to prove that EVs are useless because they simply MUST drive from Aberdeen to Istanbul once a week without stopping.
We get it, an EV might not work for you right now. Seeking approval or validation of that is just a waste of time.
. It doesn't make me any less interested in EVs or why and how people use them. Honestly the tax reason is new for me and it seems to be a fairly popular reason for people to initially try out EVs.
Edited by iulian7 on Sunday 23 August 11:26
Edited by iulian7 on Sunday 23 August 11:31
iulian7 said:
I do not want to plan anything. I want to be able to drive anywhere, whenever I want, for however long I want without planning anything. I somewhat (probably wrongly in the grand scheme of things) that this is a regression from the freedoms a classic ICE car offers today.
Erm don't you have to put fuel in your car?2015 BMW i3 BeV 22kWh (small battery) bought as ex-dealer demo at 9 months old, with 367 miles on the clock for £16,000
It's only been charged away from home twice in the 4 years i've owned it. It's effectively "free" for us to run it, because our other car is a large engineed estate car (low mpg, expensive insurance and servicing etc so every mile we don't do in that car is a big saving) That car gets used only very rarely now, because the i3 is both brilliant fun to drive, and works much better as a day to day transport device. The i3 is a real "feelgood" car, a car like perhaps an old mini, or lotus elise, that is far more than the sum of its parts, is in effect a "character car". If you like that character, then you'll love the i3 (ime, i3 owners love their cars)
I bought it when no-one really wanted one, so i got it for a song, and it's realy had pretty much zero depreciation over the 4 years i've owned it.
In the real world, the i3 is actually a pretty quick car, certainly more than capable of keeping up with most stuff. The fact that performance is so totally effortless and accessable, and can be accessed with little consumption penalty (as long as you stay off the friction brakes and use regen) seals the deal. Personally i also love thefact the i3 is a return to cars with more performance than grip, so needs to be driven properly to get the best out of it. If you jump in, drive it clumbsily, without finesse, you'll wonder what the fuss is all about, but underneath you is an exceptionally capable chassis, with possibly the highest rate of turn in dynanics this side of a Exige!
As we are now really not using our other (ICE) car (just 1,200 miles total last year), we are pretty much set on replacing it with a camper van, used for long range trips / holidays. I genuinely wouldn't go back to a non EV for day-to-day service, they are just so convient (including preheating / defrosting etc) being "fully charged" every morning, and being so nice to drive and so incredibly efficient / low consumption (i3 has averaged the equivalent of around 180 mpg over the last 4 years, used in all weathers, seldom driven particularly carefully. Ie approximately 3 times lower total energy consumption than any practical ICE car of anything like the same performance and quality)
If we weren't off doing mountain biking, walking, scuba diving and other outdoor sports, we would get rid of our ICE car completely and just hire one when we need one.
It's only been charged away from home twice in the 4 years i've owned it. It's effectively "free" for us to run it, because our other car is a large engineed estate car (low mpg, expensive insurance and servicing etc so every mile we don't do in that car is a big saving) That car gets used only very rarely now, because the i3 is both brilliant fun to drive, and works much better as a day to day transport device. The i3 is a real "feelgood" car, a car like perhaps an old mini, or lotus elise, that is far more than the sum of its parts, is in effect a "character car". If you like that character, then you'll love the i3 (ime, i3 owners love their cars)
I bought it when no-one really wanted one, so i got it for a song, and it's realy had pretty much zero depreciation over the 4 years i've owned it.
In the real world, the i3 is actually a pretty quick car, certainly more than capable of keeping up with most stuff. The fact that performance is so totally effortless and accessable, and can be accessed with little consumption penalty (as long as you stay off the friction brakes and use regen) seals the deal. Personally i also love thefact the i3 is a return to cars with more performance than grip, so needs to be driven properly to get the best out of it. If you jump in, drive it clumbsily, without finesse, you'll wonder what the fuss is all about, but underneath you is an exceptionally capable chassis, with possibly the highest rate of turn in dynanics this side of a Exige!
As we are now really not using our other (ICE) car (just 1,200 miles total last year), we are pretty much set on replacing it with a camper van, used for long range trips / holidays. I genuinely wouldn't go back to a non EV for day-to-day service, they are just so convient (including preheating / defrosting etc) being "fully charged" every morning, and being so nice to drive and so incredibly efficient / low consumption (i3 has averaged the equivalent of around 180 mpg over the last 4 years, used in all weathers, seldom driven particularly carefully. Ie approximately 3 times lower total energy consumption than any practical ICE car of anything like the same performance and quality)
If we weren't off doing mountain biking, walking, scuba diving and other outdoor sports, we would get rid of our ICE car completely and just hire one when we need one.
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