Police pursuit accident rate on the rise..........
Discussion
Saw this on teletext. Interesting that, as KSI's for the general public remain static, or even decline, we keep being told that speed kills and more speed cameras are needed, but as KSIs related to the police rise at an alarming rate, THEY need more training!! Wonder what would happen if KSIs in general rose by 60%? No doubt the alarmists would be clamouring for lower speed limits and more cameras, thereby potentially raising more tax for Golden Brown. The police chief that suggests more training for the general public will no doubt be offered early retirement.
One thing that these never mention are:
a) the numpties that do strange things in front of police cars (and ambulances, fire engines for that matter) that no matter how much professional training you could not avoid a collision;
b) driving standards have fallen to such an extent with the general public at large that (a) is more common resulting in more accidents; and
c) it does include the scrotes who seem more determined to get away.
Combine a, b and c and there will be an increase in the accidents anyway. Add in the fact that the training is not what it was then what do you expect?
a) the numpties that do strange things in front of police cars (and ambulances, fire engines for that matter) that no matter how much professional training you could not avoid a collision;
b) driving standards have fallen to such an extent with the general public at large that (a) is more common resulting in more accidents; and
c) it does include the scrotes who seem more determined to get away.
Combine a, b and c and there will be an increase in the accidents anyway. Add in the fact that the training is not what it was then what do you expect?
"that no matter how much professional training you could not avoid a collision"
I don't think this situation exists. Unless you are stationary on the horn and he still crashes into you.
The IPCC takes investigation into dangerous driving very seriously - I've had the priviledge to drive with one of their former investigators - and dangerous driving charges are brought against the drivers where appropriate. It would be good if the BBC were to give us the stats for dangerous driving by the Police as well as the accidents.
I don't think this situation exists. Unless you are stationary on the horn and he still crashes into you.
The IPCC takes investigation into dangerous driving very seriously - I've had the priviledge to drive with one of their former investigators - and dangerous driving charges are brought against the drivers where appropriate. It would be good if the BBC were to give us the stats for dangerous driving by the Police as well as the accidents.
7db said:
It would be good if the BBC were to give us the stats for dangerous driving by the Police as well as the accidents.
Taking into account the recent verdict on the 159mph cop, I'd say Dangerous Driving by Police is deemed to be very low
Odd though that the Police drivers need further training yet we need further restraining?
Of course there is my theory that due to the reduction in police staffing levels, more scrotes are prepared to try and get away, as they have noted an increase in the likely hood.
So instead of being honed down by several cars, setting blocks and stingers and calling helicopters - now there is one car, and more scrotes.
therefore accidents increase. If there were 5 cars involved and one crashed, thats 20%, one car in a chase is 100%
simple solution, dont give the scrotes the belief they can get away by having more bobbies employed.
So instead of being honed down by several cars, setting blocks and stingers and calling helicopters - now there is one car, and more scrotes.
therefore accidents increase. If there were 5 cars involved and one crashed, thats 20%, one car in a chase is 100%
simple solution, dont give the scrotes the belief they can get away by having more bobbies employed.
Has I have said before there is a culture of arrogance when it comes to police driving within the police services. Just look at all the comments you get about "it includes scrotes crashing while being chased" or "it could be he was on a shout and it was cancelled". Yes it could be, but in most cases, it is not. Then we have PC Plum who considers that "exploring the handling limits of the car" consists of verfying its top speed.
A proportion of those KSI are due to errors during training. They continue to practise live training in an uncontrolled format while the numbers of joe public increase and the skill of joe public declines (thanks to the current road policy).
Some are scrotes being chased and crashing. While not advocating a no chase policy it is right that we should continuely challenge the risk vs reward balance and the processes and decisions which are used to arrive at that balance.
The reminder are untrained BiB who probably have less skill at that the wheel then most people here and yet beleive the blue lights on top of their fiesta a) allows them free movement to avoid traffic delays b) turns their fiesta it the world's greatest handling sports car.
A proportion of those KSI are due to errors during training. They continue to practise live training in an uncontrolled format while the numbers of joe public increase and the skill of joe public declines (thanks to the current road policy).
Some are scrotes being chased and crashing. While not advocating a no chase policy it is right that we should continuely challenge the risk vs reward balance and the processes and decisions which are used to arrive at that balance.
The reminder are untrained BiB who probably have less skill at that the wheel then most people here and yet beleive the blue lights on top of their fiesta a) allows them free movement to avoid traffic delays b) turns their fiesta it the world's greatest handling sports car.
This is not responding to anyone in particular but summing up views held on this site over recent months.
Here we go again, the public, if PH is representative of the public, seems to be saying.
1. As motoring law is enforced in a draconian manner on the public then the police should also obey that law to the letter and set an example of perfect behaviour at all times. Any example of a slipped standard or minor mistake is pounced on mercilessly, yet discretion should be applied to MoP.
2. Particularly in reference to speed limit offences, even though the police have a valid legal exemption, they should only be allowed to exceed such limits in response to highest priority emergencies and possibly chasing scrotes. Any other time OPL not allowed.
3. On the other hand to point 2. above it seems to be the general public feeling that “I’m a good driver me, I only drive at appropriate speeds so I should be given discretion outside other folks’ front doors, whilst outside my front door no prisoners should be taken.”
4. Furthermore the public seems to be saying that when they call for assistance they expect the emergency services to arrive as quickly as possible. Some add the rider that this should be without putting any members of public in any/undue* danger.
*delete as appropriate.
5. The public seem to be saying that the current frequency and trend of police collisions is unacceptable and more training is required, some complain that the police ask to be trained but the public get restrained.
(Nice summary phrase that. This is despite the fact that 99+% of the public have done stuff all about any advanced or other training since passing their basic DSA Test. So if you won’t do owt about training then does the public get what it deserves?)
6. The public also, by virtue of objections to budgets, constantly impose constraints; one result of which is reduced training.
7. The public also wants, with the training levels that they do pay for, for ossifers to be sufficiently skilled and able to respond as outlined in 4 above but in whichever make, model and type of vehicle they are allocated.
8. The public also object to any self initiated and supervised practice in order to try and achieve point 7, yet by virtue of 6 not prepared to pay for any more supervised instruction.
9. Some members of the public, unbelievably, want all training to be completely away from public roads but on closed private tracks, especially any high speed activity.
Not sure whether this is due to an inability or unwillingness to understand the issues involved and that private facilities, were they available, do not meet the needs. No doubt were this to be the case the next complaint would be along the lines of accusing plod of wasting taxpayers money on track days)
Can’t have it all ways folks. Make your minds up.
Some posters are in grave danger of causing a new psychiatric disease to be defined, plodophobia.™
Expect a press release from ACPO anytime soon. About driver training not plodophobia.™
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 24th June 14:07
Here we go again, the public, if PH is representative of the public, seems to be saying.
1. As motoring law is enforced in a draconian manner on the public then the police should also obey that law to the letter and set an example of perfect behaviour at all times. Any example of a slipped standard or minor mistake is pounced on mercilessly, yet discretion should be applied to MoP.
2. Particularly in reference to speed limit offences, even though the police have a valid legal exemption, they should only be allowed to exceed such limits in response to highest priority emergencies and possibly chasing scrotes. Any other time OPL not allowed.
3. On the other hand to point 2. above it seems to be the general public feeling that “I’m a good driver me, I only drive at appropriate speeds so I should be given discretion outside other folks’ front doors, whilst outside my front door no prisoners should be taken.”
4. Furthermore the public seems to be saying that when they call for assistance they expect the emergency services to arrive as quickly as possible. Some add the rider that this should be without putting any members of public in any/undue* danger.
*delete as appropriate.
5. The public seem to be saying that the current frequency and trend of police collisions is unacceptable and more training is required, some complain that the police ask to be trained but the public get restrained.
(Nice summary phrase that. This is despite the fact that 99+% of the public have done stuff all about any advanced or other training since passing their basic DSA Test. So if you won’t do owt about training then does the public get what it deserves?)
6. The public also, by virtue of objections to budgets, constantly impose constraints; one result of which is reduced training.
7. The public also wants, with the training levels that they do pay for, for ossifers to be sufficiently skilled and able to respond as outlined in 4 above but in whichever make, model and type of vehicle they are allocated.
8. The public also object to any self initiated and supervised practice in order to try and achieve point 7, yet by virtue of 6 not prepared to pay for any more supervised instruction.
9. Some members of the public, unbelievably, want all training to be completely away from public roads but on closed private tracks, especially any high speed activity.
Not sure whether this is due to an inability or unwillingness to understand the issues involved and that private facilities, were they available, do not meet the needs. No doubt were this to be the case the next complaint would be along the lines of accusing plod of wasting taxpayers money on track days)
Can’t have it all ways folks. Make your minds up.
Some posters are in grave danger of causing a new psychiatric disease to be defined, plodophobia.™
Expect a press release from ACPO anytime soon. About driver training not plodophobia.™
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Friday 24th June 14:07
Roadcraft (the Police Drivers Handbook) specifically states that having a collision on the way to a job helps no-one. I remember a few months ago (when I was a lurker here) a few Plod who insisted that certain risks had to be taken in order to arrive timely at an incident.
I do think that collisions that occur close to a police vehicle (but do not actually involve it) should not really be included in the figures.
Short of a mass driver education programme on what to do when confronted by a responding emergency vehicle, people will always react in different ways. The best advice I've read is "Keep left".
Personally, I want police drivers to be the best trained drivers in the world. Sadly this no longer happens due to the cut in training budgets.
That, in my view, is the fundamental lesson that the budget holders need to understand.
I do think that collisions that occur close to a police vehicle (but do not actually involve it) should not really be included in the figures.
Short of a mass driver education programme on what to do when confronted by a responding emergency vehicle, people will always react in different ways. The best advice I've read is "Keep left".
Personally, I want police drivers to be the best trained drivers in the world. Sadly this no longer happens due to the cut in training budgets.
That, in my view, is the fundamental lesson that the budget holders need to understand.
VOLVOS70T5 said:
Roadcraft (the Police Drivers Handbook) specifically states that having a collision on the way to a job helps no-one.
The way it was explained to me was.
Unit A on way to job involved in collision.
Unit B despatched to deal with job no longer handled by A.
Unit C (plus D, E and maybe even F) depatched to deal with A's misfortune.
Thus minimum of 3x the resource employed due to one muppet with red mist.
Flat in Fifth said:
Roadcraft (the Police Drivers Handbook) specifically states that having a collision on the way to a job helps no-one.
The way it was explained to me was.
Unit A on way to job involved in collision.
Unit B despatched to deal with job no longer handled by A.
Unit C (plus D, E and maybe even F) depatched to deal with A's misfortune.
Thus minimum of 3x the resource employed due to one muppet with red mist.
but Unit C, D, E and F are more likely to be Traffic guys which means even less roads dedicated resources, dealing with muppets.
The problem with these headline reports is everything is emotive. We don't know how many accident happened when responding to a emergency or chasing a criminal or were just RTA's. Some of the Police accidents will be pure and simple accidents and some will be poor and possibly dangerous driving. The rest will be somewhere in between just like ordinary members of the public.
Perhaps the police bring the problem upon themselves with many having a holier than thou attitude. I have personal examples of where they are petty minded - but I'm sure they can say the same , and possibly worse , about some members of the public as well. The Police have to a certain extent made a rod for their own backs with their cosy relationship with the camera partnerships. Motorists are not blind and see the underhand activities for what they are.
I do not believe that the Policemen who use this forum are proud of this report but perhaps a bit of concern wouldn't go amiss.
Perhaps the police bring the problem upon themselves with many having a holier than thou attitude. I have personal examples of where they are petty minded - but I'm sure they can say the same , and possibly worse , about some members of the public as well. The Police have to a certain extent made a rod for their own backs with their cosy relationship with the camera partnerships. Motorists are not blind and see the underhand activities for what they are.
I do not believe that the Policemen who use this forum are proud of this report but perhaps a bit of concern wouldn't go amiss.
steveherb said:
Saw this on teletext. Interesting that, as KSI's for the general public remain static, or even decline, we keep being told that speed kills and more speed cameras are needed, but as KSIs related to the police rise at an alarming rate, THEY need more training!! Wonder what would happen if KSIs in general rose by 60%? No doubt the alarmists would be clamouring for lower speed limits and more cameras, thereby potentially raising more tax for Golden Brown. The police chief that suggests more training for the general public will no doubt be offered early retirement.
Is it that the Police need more training?
Or is it that the public are so under trained that they fail to observe well enough to avoid problems. Certainly that is my experience of 'the public on the roads'.
Also. There is a tendancy for those who are followed by police to 'give it a go' and get away because the consequences of doing so and getting it wrong are not a lot worse than stopping and getting caught for the offence they may be initially wanted!
gone said:
Saw this on teletext. Interesting that, as KSI's for the general public remain static, or even decline, we keep being told that speed kills and more speed cameras are needed, but as KSIs related to the police rise at an alarming rate, THEY need more training!! Wonder what would happen if KSIs in general rose by 60%? No doubt the alarmists would be clamouring for lower speed limits and more cameras, thereby potentially raising more tax for Golden Brown. The police chief that suggests more training for the general public will no doubt be offered early retirement.
Is it that the Police need more training?
Or is it that the public are so under trained that they fail to observe well enough to avoid problems. Certainly that is my experience of 'the public on the roads'.
Also. There is a tendancy for those who are followed by police to 'give it a go' and get away because the consequences of doing so and getting it wrong are not a lot worse than stopping and getting caught for the offence they may be initially wanted!
There you are then, if the police are involved in an accident it is the untrained public who are at fault.
VOLVOS70T5 said:
but Unit C, D, E and F are more likely to be Traffic guys which means even less roads dedicated resources, dealing with muppets.
Not to mention that the members of public who were waiting for B,C,D,E and F are still waiting.
Sorry bit of a slow response there on my part VolvoS70T5, away from the computer "honing my culinary skills."
Roast chicken with all the trimmings, end of exams celebratory dinner for Miss FiF. Too wet for the barbecue. Rest of em getting rowdy downstairs. Banrock Station sparkling Shiraz, mmmmmmmm.
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