J K Rowling on Gender Identity

[bolidemichael]

JK Rowling has fallen out with an organisation on social change and human rights, that bears the name of Robert F. Kennedy. She's returned the 'Ripple of Hope' award and drawn a line in the sand with regards to her views on a burgeoning conflict between women's rights and trans identity. Her statement is here:

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/statement-from-...

This comment struck me, in particular, as something quite alarming:

"I’ve been particularly struck by the stories of brave detransitioned young women who’ve risked the opprobrium of activists by speaking up about a movement they say has harmed them. After hearing personally from some of these women, and from such a wide range of professionals, I’ve been forced to the unhappy conclusion that an ethical and medical scandal is brewing. I believe the time is coming when those organisations and individuals who have uncritically embraced fashionable dogma, and demonised those urging caution, will have to answer for the harm they’ve enabled."

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

Is there a seditious culture in which women's agency is being diminished i.e. a woman isn't a biological definition, but a club that one can join with a couple of oestrogen pills?

More importantly, of course, how many does one have to take, in order to legitimately jump into the ladies showers at the gym? Asking for a friend...

[vetrof]

Interesting JRE podcast with Abigail Shrier about this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtftWcgXjdg

[anonymous-user]

bolidemichael said:

Is there a seditious culture in which women's agency is being diminished i.e. a woman isn't a biological definition, but a club that one can join with a couple of oestrogen pills?

More importantly, of course, how many does one have to take, in order to legitimately jump into the ladies showers at the gym? Asking for a friend...

If trans activists get their way with self ID ? None , absolutely none !



Quote below from Kerry Kennedy ( now removed from bbc article?..)


[Kennedy] went on to say the organisation categorically rejected Rowling's view that a person's sex is the one they were assigned at birth.
"The science is clear and conclusive: Sex is not binary," she wrote.

This is the level of intelligence here lol.

[Mikebentley]

I have two dogs one is female one is male. If I choose to call the male one Sarah and refer to it as she/her it won’t change the fundamental fact that it is genetically identifiable as a male of its species. However someone chooses to identify themselves is up to them but I am in the camp that believes you are genetically identifiable at birth.

Just my view.

[poo at Paul's]

bolidemichael said:

JK Rowling said

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/statement-from-...



"I’ve been particularly struck by the stories of brave detransitioned young women who’ve risked the opprobrium of activists by speaking up about a movement they say has harmed them. After hearing personally from some of these women, and from such a wide range of professionals, I’ve been forced to the unhappy conclusion that an ethical and medical scandal is brewing. I believe the time is coming when those organisations and individuals who have uncritically embraced fashionable dogma, and demonised those urging caution, will have to answer for the harm they’ve enabled."

Parklife!

[Gecko1978]

Mikebentley said:

I have two dogs one is female one is male. If I choose to call the male one Sarah and refer to it as she/her it won’t change the fundamental fact that it is genetically identifiable as a male of its species. However someone chooses to identify themselves is up to them but I am in the camp that believes you are genetically identifiable at birth.

Just my view.

I would refine it further, I am happy for you to identify as you wish and should you inform me of that where it conflicts with your outward appearance I will do my best to treat you according to your own definition. However if you believe something which visually is at odds with other cues, or I have known you as another gender which you once identified as it is not going to change my view of what you are but I will still support you.

[Grrbang]

bolidemichael said:

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

Is there a seditious culture in which women's agency is being diminished i.e. a woman isn't a biological definition, but a club that one can join with a couple of oestrogen pills?

More importantly, of course, how many does one have to take, in order to legitimately jump into the ladies showers at the gym? Asking for a friend...

I would preface my response that I have nothing against a person being trans.

I agree that putting gender theory into practice is all about the details and practicalities (how many does one have to take...).

The difficulty with women's safe spaces is the concern that any law which lets trans women in will let anyone in. At this point I would fail to see how it could be called a women's safe space. This problem would be a certainty unless you have to produce some kind of medical card. The only alternative is only letting in people who pass off convincingly as that sex, but that's difficult to achieve even with body modification.

Medical professionals have spoken about the difficulty of performing an accurate medical diagnosis on real people. I am still not aware of any physiological or biometric marker of trans-ness. I am also not aware of a psychological diagnostic test that is reliable enough given the number of detransitions, suicides and disgruntled ex-clinicians.

[grumbledoak]

bolidemichael said:

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

[Murph7355]

grumbledoak said:

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

She has history on the topic, so I suspect this is a continuation of that.

(Not decrying her for it btw...it's evidently something that she believes in and I think it's a topic that needs significantly more thought and open debate than I think has been allowed to happen thus far).

[anonymous-user]

grumbledoak said:

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

At first glance it seems odd as most people think trans means transsexual or transvestites , so have a image of a post op fully transitioned individual trying to live as a woman or someone dressed in women’s clothing for a fetish. But JK and others know it’s way beyond that nowadays, with women’s rights in every way at risk from men who say they feel like a women , no debate.

[A Winner Is You]

grumbledoak said:

bolidemichael said:

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

I get the feeling we're going to see a lot of lawsuits in 10-15 years time

[Starfighter]

I believe she raises a valid point.

We appear to be allowing teens to make decision and consent to treatments including drugs and surgery based on their desire to have a different gender based characteristics to that they were born with. We don’t allow people of the same age to have tattoos as they are not thought to be mature enough to have skin art.

I would like to see a minimum limit age of 18 attached to all gender related treatment. Psychological support should be available for those under 18 after which the can do as they wish.

[bolidemichael]

Iwantafusca said:

But JK and others know it’s way beyond that nowadays, with women’s rights in every way at risk from men who say they feel like a women , no debate.

Has is really entered common parlance to the extent that it is common for the BBC to refer to a 'daughter's sperm'? The original (clickbait?) headline, omitted the word transgender.

Mother in legal fight to save dead transgender daughter's sperm

How on Earth are we supposed to differentiate a legitimate female (by all accounts) from a 'cuckoo' female, if the assumptive usurpation of our language presents itself as though a boy to girl or girl to boy or other 'state of gender identity' is given carte blanche. How can one possibly feel so out of touch with society's shifting sands, so quickly, as I do when I read the article about the fruit of her daughter's testes?

Edited by bolidemichael on Saturday 29th August 10:23

[amusingduck]

vetrof said:

Interesting JRE podcast with Abigail Shrier about this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtftWcgXjdg

Interesting, thanks. Especially the bits about social media and how girls who would have been susceptible to anorexia in days gone by have essentially replaced it with transgenderism.

I was surprised at the 4000% increase in UK children seeking transition. That's pretty staggering. It does seem that there are a lot of confused kids getting swept up in this trend that wouldn't have reached this conclusion without outside influence.

[Mammasaid]

A Winner Is You said:

grumbledoak said:

bolidemichael said:

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

I get the feeling we're going to see a lot of lawsuits in 10-15 years time

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childr...

[bolidemichael]

Mammasaid said:

A Winner Is You said:

grumbledoak said:

bolidemichael said:

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

I suspect there is more than a grain of truth here. It's been a weirdly untouchable little growth industry for daring psychiatrists and experimental surgeons and no-one has been allowed to mention the victims. Rowling won't miss a gong, but it's an odd battle to choose.

I get the feeling we're going to see a lot of lawsuits in 10-15 years time

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childr...

It's behind a paywall unfortunately. Can you tldr? Or does the headline say it all?

[Teddy Lop]

amusingduck said:

Interesting, thanks. Especially the bits about social media and how girls who would have been susceptible to anorexia in days gone by have essentially replaced it with transgenderism.

I was surprised at the 4000% increase in UK children seeking transition. That's pretty staggering. It does seem that there are a lot of confused kids getting swept up in this trend that wouldn't have reached this conclusion without outside influence.

give a listen to wrongspeak podcast #8 with Dr Susan Bradley, a professor of psychology who did pioneering work with kids and helped them transition where appropriate - but fell foul of the activist hate mob after criticizing the modern movement and was shut down. Depressing and enraging.

[zygalski]

Mikebentley said:

I have two dogs one is female one is male. If I choose to call the male one Sarah and refer to it as she/her it won’t change the fundamental fact that it is genetically identifiable as a male of its species. However someone chooses to identify themselves is up to them but I am in the camp that believes you are genetically identifiable at birth.

Just my view.

Therein lies the flip side of the problem. Comparing humans to dogs.

[dandarez]

It's da modun wurld.
Only one thing caught my attention from these attention seekers, especially the 'activist' lot - I'm not a JK Rowling fan, (if only she'd had another second name, say Francesca, she could have been JFK too!

Never seen nor read any Harry Potter, but she's a bright lady, you don't get half the world's kids (and a lot of adults) adoring you and that far in life without being so, but these people all love the limelight as they have spent their lives in it. Especially, the other JFK family albeit through tragedy.

JKR decided to hand back her 'trophy' back. Why not? It's her decision. Most people I've seen commenting on the story today back her to the hilt.

I've no other interest in the discussion except 'activists' are in the main attention seekers, little else.
Just like the ER tts who will be causing disruption to 'normal' (oh gawd, someone will now comment what's 'normal'? so before you do, I'll change it) to 'everyday' people's lives this weekend all in the name of 'attention', little fking else. tts of the highest order, that even includes docs and GPs among them. Hope they social distance... funny, eh? Just my opinion, don't get upset.

Oh, back to the JKR story.
The thing that caught my eye was the article describing this 'non-story' in 'The Telegraph, a 'once' respected newspaper, like others back in the day, where, today, journalism and accuracy are miles adrift.
Proofreaders? Who needs 'em, errors are commonplace. Leave 'em.

It's by Izzy Lyons.
A simple 'schoolgirl' error.
Nobody has picked it up. It's still there and online now. A youngster glancing at that will probably take it first hand if they have no world knowledge.
Have you spotted it yet?

[AJL308]

bolidemichael said:

JK Rowling has fallen out with an organisation on social change and human rights, that bears the name of Robert F. Kennedy. She's returned the 'Ripple of Hope' award and drawn a line in the sand with regards to her views on a burgeoning conflict between women's rights and trans identity. Her statement is here:

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/statement-from-...

This comment struck me, in particular, as something quite alarming:

"I’ve been particularly struck by the stories of brave detransitioned young women who’ve risked the opprobrium of activists by speaking up about a movement they say has harmed them. After hearing personally from some of these women, and from such a wide range of professionals, I’ve been forced to the unhappy conclusion that an ethical and medical scandal is brewing. I believe the time is coming when those organisations and individuals who have uncritically embraced fashionable dogma, and demonised those urging caution, will have to answer for the harm they’ve enabled."

The accusation, if I interpret it correctly, is that a combination of unchecked medical science and naval-gazing politicians, has led to a culture of experimentation amongst confused youths, at a precocious stage in their young lives.

Is there a seditious culture in which women's agency is being diminished i.e. a woman isn't a biological definition, but a club that one can join with a couple of oestrogen pills?

More importantly, of course, how many does one have to take, in order to legitimately jump into the ladies showers at the gym? Asking for a friend...

The paragraph above that is significant too:

The history of medicine has many examples in which the well-meaning pursuit of short-term relief of symptoms has led to devastating long-term results… The “gender affirmative” model commits young people to lifelong medical treatment…, dismisses the question of whether psychological therapy might help to relieve or resolve gender dysphoria and provides interventions without an adequate examination.

In twenty years time this is going to be seen in the same light as mass lobotomy and electric shock therapy. It's quackery.