BMW M140 (manual)
Discussion
Here was my lovely M140, I sold it last month but decided to write a review on her, what a fantastic car indeed. So much so, I’m debating getting into another.
The Good Bits
The first generation B58 in this was the real highlight. Punchy torque down low and always there. The looks of this car grew on me, looking a shooting brake at certain angles and a sleeper on the toad.
These cars also huge huge tuning potential. Spend £500 on a remap and you’re at 430bhp and similar lb/ft of torque (but trust me, this car doesn’t need more power, it doesn’t handle it well in stock form anyway). The sound from outside is great too and the manual gearbox was engaging. I opted for the manual after hearing too many stories about whining gears and problems in the auto ZF 8HP50. Plus the auto is very complex and will break at some point. Likely costing you many thousands of pounds.
I liked the split personality of this car, one hand hand a point and shoot weapon that sounds great and on the other hand, reasonably sized comfy small GT that returned me 38MPG.
Cheap to run and I paid £480 a year insurance when I was 30 with 5 years NCB. some of the fun (and better sound) as an M car but none of the expensive ownership costs.
The Bad Bits
Yes, there are some. The manual box wasn’t the best I’ve used but I’d still have it over an auto for reliability reasons and cost to repair. You hear people say it feels rubbery, notchy and vague, it really does. When pushing on hard, 2nd to 3rd wouldn’t always go in smoothly and felt like a fight. Just didn’t have that robust meaty feeling like you’d get in a WRX or even the Mazda MX5 boxes.
The clutch pedal is offset a fair amount. You’re a little twisted to reach it which is odd but to be honest I stopped noticing after a while. It’s not until you look, you realise.
You can’t hear any sound inside the car, engineer noise and exhaust notes are non existent. It’s so well insulated that unless you get a new mid pipe you’re not hearing anything other than fake noise which isn’t great.
No LSD. The rears suffer with that open diff and when pushing on it fights a little at the rear. The skinner 245 tyres could have done with being 255 like BMW now do.
Bouncy ride in the B roads. The car does feel a bit bouncy with its overly stiff springs and can feel a bit uncomposed at high speeds. This is where the M car shines.
Overall a great little car and had no problems with mine despite driving it hard most of the time. I’d say put an LSD, Bilstein B12’s and an underbody brace on this and you have yourself a very capable car; a car worthy of the M badge ....without the M badge.
The Good Bits
The first generation B58 in this was the real highlight. Punchy torque down low and always there. The looks of this car grew on me, looking a shooting brake at certain angles and a sleeper on the toad.
These cars also huge huge tuning potential. Spend £500 on a remap and you’re at 430bhp and similar lb/ft of torque (but trust me, this car doesn’t need more power, it doesn’t handle it well in stock form anyway). The sound from outside is great too and the manual gearbox was engaging. I opted for the manual after hearing too many stories about whining gears and problems in the auto ZF 8HP50. Plus the auto is very complex and will break at some point. Likely costing you many thousands of pounds.
I liked the split personality of this car, one hand hand a point and shoot weapon that sounds great and on the other hand, reasonably sized comfy small GT that returned me 38MPG.
Cheap to run and I paid £480 a year insurance when I was 30 with 5 years NCB. some of the fun (and better sound) as an M car but none of the expensive ownership costs.
The Bad Bits
Yes, there are some. The manual box wasn’t the best I’ve used but I’d still have it over an auto for reliability reasons and cost to repair. You hear people say it feels rubbery, notchy and vague, it really does. When pushing on hard, 2nd to 3rd wouldn’t always go in smoothly and felt like a fight. Just didn’t have that robust meaty feeling like you’d get in a WRX or even the Mazda MX5 boxes.
The clutch pedal is offset a fair amount. You’re a little twisted to reach it which is odd but to be honest I stopped noticing after a while. It’s not until you look, you realise.
You can’t hear any sound inside the car, engineer noise and exhaust notes are non existent. It’s so well insulated that unless you get a new mid pipe you’re not hearing anything other than fake noise which isn’t great.
No LSD. The rears suffer with that open diff and when pushing on it fights a little at the rear. The skinner 245 tyres could have done with being 255 like BMW now do.
Bouncy ride in the B roads. The car does feel a bit bouncy with its overly stiff springs and can feel a bit uncomposed at high speeds. This is where the M car shines.
Overall a great little car and had no problems with mine despite driving it hard most of the time. I’d say put an LSD, Bilstein B12’s and an underbody brace on this and you have yourself a very capable car; a car worthy of the M badge ....without the M badge.
Edited by JB33 on Sunday 30th August 07:34
What makes you think the ZF box will break?? I thought they are regarded as the best auto gearbox in use at present, easily capable of well over 200k miles.
I have the ZF in my Z4 and find it a really good gearbox, much quicker to change then the manual very smooth and seamless changes. My Z4 has been remapped and the box handles it just fine.
Nice car btw.
I have the ZF in my Z4 and find it a really good gearbox, much quicker to change then the manual very smooth and seamless changes. My Z4 has been remapped and the box handles it just fine.
Nice car btw.
Thanks.
I’ve read about gearbox whine in the ZF 8HP50 and done so much research into it it was borderline obsessive, even have an email from ZF proving some detail after trying to find a technical rep.
I worried myself thinking that if I spend £20k or more in a car, I’d hate to be stuck with the dreaded gearbox whine and have the dealership dig their heels in.
ZF did acknowledge the problem with the planetary gears on ‘some’ models and insisted BMW have steps in place to fix but it didn’t reassure me. Apparently it was on the earlier 66 plate models but I’ve seen reports of newer cars have it. It felt like the luck of the draw and I didn’t like that. I appreciate I probably was my own worst enemy and ended up feeling like it was every single car when in reality it was a small portion.
I’ve read about gearbox whine in the ZF 8HP50 and done so much research into it it was borderline obsessive, even have an email from ZF proving some detail after trying to find a technical rep.
I worried myself thinking that if I spend £20k or more in a car, I’d hate to be stuck with the dreaded gearbox whine and have the dealership dig their heels in.
ZF did acknowledge the problem with the planetary gears on ‘some’ models and insisted BMW have steps in place to fix but it didn’t reassure me. Apparently it was on the earlier 66 plate models but I’ve seen reports of newer cars have it. It felt like the luck of the draw and I didn’t like that. I appreciate I probably was my own worst enemy and ended up feeling like it was every single car when in reality it was a small portion.
I’ve had my M140i for 14 months now and it’s generally been Avery good little car. Mine is an auto because the manual had been dropped by the time I ordered mine; I’d have gone auto regardless because I’m generally not a fan of BMW manual gearboxes.
As for for the whine, as far an I’m aware it’s just a noise with no reports of subsequent failures. Quite a few guys on BabyBMW are affected but it’s never got worse nor have their gearboxes failed.
I agree about the suspension. Mine has been lowered with H+R springs which are a bit softer on the rear than the OE ones. I’ve also fitted the underbody brace. Those two things with a decent alignment have made a noticeable difference. I’m pretty happy with my car now.
As for for the whine, as far an I’m aware it’s just a noise with no reports of subsequent failures. Quite a few guys on BabyBMW are affected but it’s never got worse nor have their gearboxes failed.
I agree about the suspension. Mine has been lowered with H+R springs which are a bit softer on the rear than the OE ones. I’ve also fitted the underbody brace. Those two things with a decent alignment have made a noticeable difference. I’m pretty happy with my car now.
Court_S said:
I’ve had my M140i for 14 months now and it’s generally been Avery good little car. Mine is an auto because the manual had been dropped by the time I ordered mine; I’d have gone auto regardless because I’m generally not a fan of BMW manual gearboxes.
As for for the whine, as far an I’m aware it’s just a noise with no reports of subsequent failures. Quite a few guys on BabyBMW are affected but it’s never got worse nor have their gearboxes failed.
I agree about the suspension. Mine has been lowered with H+R springs which are a bit softer on the rear than the OE ones. I’ve also fitted the underbody brace. Those two things with a decent alignment have made a noticeable difference. I’m pretty happy with my car now.
Interesting RE: the H&R springs. We've the underbody brace fitted to ours. Sounds like the springs might be a good next step.As for for the whine, as far an I’m aware it’s just a noise with no reports of subsequent failures. Quite a few guys on BabyBMW are affected but it’s never got worse nor have their gearboxes failed.
I agree about the suspension. Mine has been lowered with H+R springs which are a bit softer on the rear than the OE ones. I’ve also fitted the underbody brace. Those two things with a decent alignment have made a noticeable difference. I’m pretty happy with my car now.
I think they're a great all rounder, amazing VFM when new after the £10K+ typical discount and they have a real USP being 3.0 litre and RWD in a class of AWD four pots.
Re the automatic gearbox, I’ll just chime in as an auto owner.
I think you’ve very probably just made yourself paranoid to be honest. The ZF8HP50 has had very few failures in the 140i and it’s capable of taking serious power and torque with a software upgrade. My car has the whine occasionally when leaning on it hard, and has done since about 4K miles, but never any performance issues at all, and it’s on 62k miles now.
I changed the filter and sump / fluid at 60k and there was no swarf or signs of any problems at all.
To add to that, my car has been in various states of tune since 11k miles, and currently has an upgraded HPFP, Pure800 Hybrid turbo and xHP stage 3 gearbox software. The stage 3 software increases the clutch clamping pressures in the box and removes the torque limiters in lower gears so I can use the torque from the bigger turbo, so it’s working hard currently as well. No issues at all. And I’m pretty manic about maintenance and checking the DME for codes in case any slip is detected etc.
I’d agree with your observations about the manual box, I’ve driven 2 and found it a bit poor. The automatic rev matching is infuriating too, although I believe it can be mapped out.
ZF8 boxes are also very cheap second hand due to the low failure rate, there simply isn’t masses of demand due to the reliability. I’ve just had a quick look on eBay and there’s on for just over a grand.
Factoring in that the stock clutch will last about 2 months with a decat and stage 2 map, and the cost of an upgraded 550i clutch that you can use as a replacement, you’re not really much worse off if you happened to be really horribly unlucky and have an auto box failure.
I definitely wouldn’t discount it on your next one if you’re purely worried about reliability.
I think you’ve very probably just made yourself paranoid to be honest. The ZF8HP50 has had very few failures in the 140i and it’s capable of taking serious power and torque with a software upgrade. My car has the whine occasionally when leaning on it hard, and has done since about 4K miles, but never any performance issues at all, and it’s on 62k miles now.
I changed the filter and sump / fluid at 60k and there was no swarf or signs of any problems at all.
To add to that, my car has been in various states of tune since 11k miles, and currently has an upgraded HPFP, Pure800 Hybrid turbo and xHP stage 3 gearbox software. The stage 3 software increases the clutch clamping pressures in the box and removes the torque limiters in lower gears so I can use the torque from the bigger turbo, so it’s working hard currently as well. No issues at all. And I’m pretty manic about maintenance and checking the DME for codes in case any slip is detected etc.
I’d agree with your observations about the manual box, I’ve driven 2 and found it a bit poor. The automatic rev matching is infuriating too, although I believe it can be mapped out.
ZF8 boxes are also very cheap second hand due to the low failure rate, there simply isn’t masses of demand due to the reliability. I’ve just had a quick look on eBay and there’s on for just over a grand.
Factoring in that the stock clutch will last about 2 months with a decat and stage 2 map, and the cost of an upgraded 550i clutch that you can use as a replacement, you’re not really much worse off if you happened to be really horribly unlucky and have an auto box failure.
I definitely wouldn’t discount it on your next one if you’re purely worried about reliability.
Deep Thought said:
Interesting RE: the H&R springs. We've the underbody brace fitted to ours. Sounds like the springs might be a good next step.
I think they're a great all rounder, amazing VFM when new after the £10K+ typical discount and they have a real USP being 3.0 litre and RWD in a class of AWD four pots.
The best upgrade would probably be some new dampers because mine still pogos a bit. However it does feel much better than stock. I was finding my head more and more turned by a proper M car but I went for an early morning drive yesterday just because and the car worked really well. The bang on alignment has made a huge difference rather than one in tolerance. I just need to release a bit more noise from it. I think they're a great all rounder, amazing VFM when new after the £10K+ typical discount and they have a real USP being 3.0 litre and RWD in a class of AWD four pots.
Court_S said:
Deep Thought said:
Interesting RE: the H&R springs. We've the underbody brace fitted to ours. Sounds like the springs might be a good next step.
I think they're a great all rounder, amazing VFM when new after the £10K+ typical discount and they have a real USP being 3.0 litre and RWD in a class of AWD four pots.
The best upgrade would probably be some new dampers because mine still pogos a bit. However it does feel much better than stock. I was finding my head more and more turned by a proper M car but I went for an early morning drive yesterday just because and the car worked really well. The bang on alignment has made a huge difference rather than one in tolerance. I just need to release a bit more noise from it. I think they're a great all rounder, amazing VFM when new after the £10K+ typical discount and they have a real USP being 3.0 litre and RWD in a class of AWD four pots.
And agreed re exhaust. It is a little quiet compared to the non PPF cars. Might look at that at some point.
Deep Thought said:
Yes, i think a suspension upgrade including shocks might then be the way to go for us.
And agreed re exhaust. It is a little quiet compared to the non PPF cars. Might look at that at some point.
I think I’ll head to PCW next year to get that sorted. I’ll leave the res alone I think and just do the backbox. I’d have had the M Performance exhaust if I didn’t have a PPF car.And agreed re exhaust. It is a little quiet compared to the non PPF cars. Might look at that at some point.
To be fair the Auto box is mechanically far more capable of taking the torque over a manual..
With what the B58 is capable of you'd be chewing through clutches, baulk ring and sychros if you did some hard launches!
Believe it or not a Manual gearbox has a torque limit too, far lower than the ZF8spd.
The M140 is a good car in auto form, i'd love one if I had the cash!
With what the B58 is capable of you'd be chewing through clutches, baulk ring and sychros if you did some hard launches!
Believe it or not a Manual gearbox has a torque limit too, far lower than the ZF8spd.
The M140 is a good car in auto form, i'd love one if I had the cash!
It isnt really worth getting too worried about the ZF8, they dont break very often and if push comes to shove eBay has a varied selection of them, as the M140i gets smashed up way more often than the gearbox breaks, hence there are plenty available and they arent expensive. £500 for the box and Prob £300 or so to swap it over.
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