Discussion
I am considering updating the ignition on my Chimaera and was looking to change to coil packs. I see various discussions on the topic a while back, but has anyone done this recently? I am not interested in doing this conversion myself, so just wanted to take it somewhere to have the work done. Anyone got any suggestions or thoughts? Thanks.
You generally see these on cars that have changed the ECU from the Lucas 14CUX to an after market system.
I don't know if it is possible to make the change without the change of ECU, as I believe it means a change away from the distributor, coil and so on.
My car is on coil packs and an Emerald ECU - ignition is far smoother.
I don't know if it is possible to make the change without the change of ECU, as I believe it means a change away from the distributor, coil and so on.
My car is on coil packs and an Emerald ECU - ignition is far smoother.
I'm currently in the process of doing this to my car, afaik you will need to convert the car to a more modern ecu for it to work but I could be wrong about that. I went for megasquirt as there are a lot of DIY options, but if you want to take it somewhere you'll probably be looking at 1-2K for a drive in/drive out conversion. I think emerald is another option, John Eales also recommended another company to me but I forget what it was now.
There's a lot of advantages to swapping to a modern ecu including more power, better fuel efficiency, and less "shunting" at low RPMS. Mine never ran quite right on the old 14cux ECU so it will be interesting to see how much improvement there is once it's converted!
There's a lot of advantages to swapping to a modern ecu including more power, better fuel efficiency, and less "shunting" at low RPMS. Mine never ran quite right on the old 14cux ECU so it will be interesting to see how much improvement there is once it's converted!
Firstly why? You don't have the faculty to alter the individual cylinder timing based on knock feed back, to get the best anyway and the Lucas system is not that bad. The HT produced by the coil is fine for the engines needs, so the gains will be very low. It's a different matter if you want to put a fuel and ignition ECU as you can get fuel and ignition to work together. A friend of mine tried running the megajolt with the 14CUX, but it lead to all sorts of idle issues, that we never pinned down. If you want mappable ignition the 123 system is a good choice, but expensive.
Thanks for the replies chaps.
I have had 20 years of turn-key motoring with my car without any problems, but this year it has become very unreliable. Basically, it starts but won't run reliably for any period of time. It has this habit of just cutting out, like a complete electrical failure. Leave it 20 mins and it will start and run again (for a while). I have changed all the HT side of things over the last year or so and am fairly sure all is ok with that. When it stops I have power to the coil, the fuel pump primes, but just no spark. I thought it was an ignition module issue so I changed that (with an original lucas part) and it ran fine for about a week. Then the same issues started again. I then changed the wiring that fed the ignition module just in case there was a break in one of the wires, but still the same issue. Tried different coils, ignition relay, but to no avail. Problem is that the car is now getting on a bit in years (it is a 1993), and the Lucas system wasn't that modern to start with. Just thinking that it is time to upgrade things.
I don't get to use the car that often, so I just need to make sure that it is reliable as possible. Don't mind changing the ECU as I assumed I would need to do that anyway.
I have had 20 years of turn-key motoring with my car without any problems, but this year it has become very unreliable. Basically, it starts but won't run reliably for any period of time. It has this habit of just cutting out, like a complete electrical failure. Leave it 20 mins and it will start and run again (for a while). I have changed all the HT side of things over the last year or so and am fairly sure all is ok with that. When it stops I have power to the coil, the fuel pump primes, but just no spark. I thought it was an ignition module issue so I changed that (with an original lucas part) and it ran fine for about a week. Then the same issues started again. I then changed the wiring that fed the ignition module just in case there was a break in one of the wires, but still the same issue. Tried different coils, ignition relay, but to no avail. Problem is that the car is now getting on a bit in years (it is a 1993), and the Lucas system wasn't that modern to start with. Just thinking that it is time to upgrade things.
I don't get to use the car that often, so I just need to make sure that it is reliable as possible. Don't mind changing the ECU as I assumed I would need to do that anyway.
Green King said:
Thanks for the replies chaps.
I have had 20 years of turn-key motoring with my car without any problems, but this year it has become very unreliable. Basically, it starts but won't run reliably for any period of time. It has this habit of just cutting out, like a complete electrical failure. Leave it 20 mins and it will start and run again (for a while). I have changed all the HT side of things over the last year or so and am fairly sure all is ok with that. When it stops I have power to the coil, the fuel pump primes, but just no spark. I thought it was an ignition module issue so I changed that (with an original lucas part) and it ran fine for about a week. Then the same issues started again. I then changed the wiring that fed the ignition module just in case there was a break in one of the wires, but still the same issue. Tried different coils, ignition relay, but to no avail. Problem is that the car is now getting on a bit in years (it is a 1993), and the Lucas system wasn't that modern to start with. Just thinking that it is time to upgrade things.
I don't get to use the car that often, so I just need to make sure that it is reliable as possible. Don't mind changing the ECU as I assumed I would need to do that anyway.
That almost sounds like a poor engine ground or wiring loom issue. Perhaps add some 50mm2 battery cables to the shopping list if this hasn't been done already? I have had 20 years of turn-key motoring with my car without any problems, but this year it has become very unreliable. Basically, it starts but won't run reliably for any period of time. It has this habit of just cutting out, like a complete electrical failure. Leave it 20 mins and it will start and run again (for a while). I have changed all the HT side of things over the last year or so and am fairly sure all is ok with that. When it stops I have power to the coil, the fuel pump primes, but just no spark. I thought it was an ignition module issue so I changed that (with an original lucas part) and it ran fine for about a week. Then the same issues started again. I then changed the wiring that fed the ignition module just in case there was a break in one of the wires, but still the same issue. Tried different coils, ignition relay, but to no avail. Problem is that the car is now getting on a bit in years (it is a 1993), and the Lucas system wasn't that modern to start with. Just thinking that it is time to upgrade things.
I don't get to use the car that often, so I just need to make sure that it is reliable as possible. Don't mind changing the ECU as I assumed I would need to do that anyway.
That to me does sound like something failing when it gets warm.
I am afraid to say that new ignition components aren't what they used to be, and the new one you fitted may be on the way out already.
Getting someone else to fit and map an aftermarket ECU with coil packs etc will cost you a couple of grand.
Why not take it to a man wot knows first and see if they can diagnose it for you?
I take mine to Mat Smith in Downham Market, West Norfolk, and can thoroughly recommend him.
He can lend you a loan car (not a TVR!) or if you ask he can look at it while you wait.
He's not actually that far from you, and you can always ogle his race Chimaera while you wait, or take his dogs for a walk.
I am afraid to say that new ignition components aren't what they used to be, and the new one you fitted may be on the way out already.
Getting someone else to fit and map an aftermarket ECU with coil packs etc will cost you a couple of grand.
Why not take it to a man wot knows first and see if they can diagnose it for you?
I take mine to Mat Smith in Downham Market, West Norfolk, and can thoroughly recommend him.
He can lend you a loan car (not a TVR!) or if you ask he can look at it while you wait.
He's not actually that far from you, and you can always ogle his race Chimaera while you wait, or take his dogs for a walk.
QBee said:
That to me does sound like something failing when it gets warm.
I am afraid to say that new ignition components aren't what they used to be, and the new one you fitted may be on the way out already.
Getting someone else to fit and map an aftermarket ECU with coil packs etc will cost you a couple of grand.
Why not take it to a man wot knows first and see if they can diagnose it for you?
I take mine to Mat Smith in Downham Market, West Norfolk, and can thoroughly recommend him.
He can lend you a loan car (not a TVR!) or if you ask he can look at it while you wait.
He's not actually that far from you, and you can always ogle his race Chimaera while you wait, or take his dogs for a walk.
This is very true, my replacement distributor cap was poor quality and you could twist it by several degrees side to side when it was fitted on the car. Could also be a failing coil perhaps? I believe you can bench test them quite easily but have never done it myself. I am afraid to say that new ignition components aren't what they used to be, and the new one you fitted may be on the way out already.
Getting someone else to fit and map an aftermarket ECU with coil packs etc will cost you a couple of grand.
Why not take it to a man wot knows first and see if they can diagnose it for you?
I take mine to Mat Smith in Downham Market, West Norfolk, and can thoroughly recommend him.
He can lend you a loan car (not a TVR!) or if you ask he can look at it while you wait.
He's not actually that far from you, and you can always ogle his race Chimaera while you wait, or take his dogs for a walk.
I agree it's probably best to get it to a specialist or narrow down the issue yourself before upgrading, nothing more frustrating than spending money and not fixing the problem!
You must be able to pin this down, no spark where, at the plug or coil output ( king lead) ? You only have the amp or distributor trigger head to deal with if the coil and 12v are good. You can get the trigger head wires to break as the trigger head moves with the vacuum advance and retard. Best way to test this is do a resistance check across the two connectors that the amp plugs into on the side of the dizzy and suck on the vacuum pipe to the dizzy to move the trigger head. If it goes open circuit you have found the issue.
Edited by blitzracing on Sunday 30th August 17:09
Thanks again for the replies people.
I was tempted to take this to a specialist to see if they can sort the issue, but that would mean putting it on a trailer to get it there, as I can't drive it for more than a few minuted without it stopping.
When I first encountered these issues I did wonder if it was the old immobiliser so used this as an excuse to have that changed. However, that didn't resolve the issue.
Blitzracing: I was also convinced that I could pin this down, but am not so sure now. I have power to the coil, but can't get a spark at the coil output (king lead). I have tried a different coil, but nothing changed. This is why I assumed it was the ignition module. I am not that familiar with the internals of the distributor, but am interested in your thoughts about the trigger head. I do think that this is an ignition/timing issue, as when its about to stop the engine suddenly runs very rich - you can smell unburnt fuel at the exhaust and it also feels like the advance/retard is out as if you try to 'blip' the throttle, there is a significant delay. Can you explain how to do the check you suggest? the two connectors, are these the two that are in the small blue connector block that the ignition module connects to? How do I check if it is open circuit. I have a multi-meter, but other than using it to check if there is voltage somewhere, I am a little lost. If it is a problem with the trigger head, is that fixable?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am reaching the limit of my understanding of ignition systems!
Belle427: the car is definitely a keeper. Had it 20 years, can't imagine getting rid of it now (despite these frustrations). Where did you get your aftermarket conversion done?
Whilst on the subject of aftermarket conversions, what is the 123 distributor system? Does anyone know anyone who has used that?
I was tempted to take this to a specialist to see if they can sort the issue, but that would mean putting it on a trailer to get it there, as I can't drive it for more than a few minuted without it stopping.
When I first encountered these issues I did wonder if it was the old immobiliser so used this as an excuse to have that changed. However, that didn't resolve the issue.
Blitzracing: I was also convinced that I could pin this down, but am not so sure now. I have power to the coil, but can't get a spark at the coil output (king lead). I have tried a different coil, but nothing changed. This is why I assumed it was the ignition module. I am not that familiar with the internals of the distributor, but am interested in your thoughts about the trigger head. I do think that this is an ignition/timing issue, as when its about to stop the engine suddenly runs very rich - you can smell unburnt fuel at the exhaust and it also feels like the advance/retard is out as if you try to 'blip' the throttle, there is a significant delay. Can you explain how to do the check you suggest? the two connectors, are these the two that are in the small blue connector block that the ignition module connects to? How do I check if it is open circuit. I have a multi-meter, but other than using it to check if there is voltage somewhere, I am a little lost. If it is a problem with the trigger head, is that fixable?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am reaching the limit of my understanding of ignition systems!
Belle427: the car is definitely a keeper. Had it 20 years, can't imagine getting rid of it now (despite these frustrations). Where did you get your aftermarket conversion done?
Whilst on the subject of aftermarket conversions, what is the 123 distributor system? Does anyone know anyone who has used that?
Could be your wiring loom breaking down , I was like you chasing my tail with similar problems for months ,decided to get powers mbe install not cheap but you do get a brand new loom as well as getting rid of all the now getting problematic stuff ,and of course finding genuine parts that work correctly is gatting hard as well coils rotor arms ignition amps etc .
I got mine done, drive in, drive out, by Jools, aka Kits and Classics, who is based at Chesterfield.
I know that Mat Smith Sports Cars, another TVR specialist, also does them. He is in West Norfolk, at Downham Market.
Both make up a complete new engine bay loom for your car, install it, coilpacks, wide band lambda and the Emerald ECU, and fine tune it on the rolling road. They remove the lambdas, distributor, coil, ignition amplifier and stepper and give them back to you. My car also had its AFM removed, but I think this may be to do with having a turbo installed at the same time.
Total cost was around £2,000-2500 - I am uncertain on cost because I also had bigger injectors installed, which were not cheap.
I know that Mat Smith Sports Cars, another TVR specialist, also does them. He is in West Norfolk, at Downham Market.
Both make up a complete new engine bay loom for your car, install it, coilpacks, wide band lambda and the Emerald ECU, and fine tune it on the rolling road. They remove the lambdas, distributor, coil, ignition amplifier and stepper and give them back to you. My car also had its AFM removed, but I think this may be to do with having a turbo installed at the same time.
Total cost was around £2,000-2500 - I am uncertain on cost because I also had bigger injectors installed, which were not cheap.
Make sure the amp is clean well earthed especially if fitted remote and then when fitting if you touch the back plate make sure you clean it with spirit and apply thermal paste. as much as a fingerprint could effect it overtime and maybe halve its lifetime. The back plate is one plate of two that form a capacitor the ceramic inside being the dielectric. This is what actually decks the coil.
The trigger head is just a coil of wire. It gets a magnetic field passed into it as the rotor passes its core, and it produces a tiny voltage- nothing you can really measure with a meter, you would need an oscilloscope, and this gets boosted by the amplifier- thats why its called an amp, not a trigger module. Point being if you unplug the amp off the side of the dizzy, and then meter out the connection you should get an ohms reading- from memory is k ohms, (ill check when I get a mo'). If it goes open circuit you have a break in the wiring. You cant get the parts for the dizzy, but a whole new one does not cost a fortune from the landrover boys or Powersparks, and may come with an amp anyway.
The 123 system is really well made and just plugs in and is fully electronic and programmable, so it just needs your coil to work, but it does cost about £400 last time I looked.
If you cant get a spark, unplug the amp at the top connector and then try grounding the negative side of the coil with a bit of wire and see if you can get a spark at the king lead. It will be pretty weedy, as you dont have a capacitor to allow the coil to discharge properly, but you should get something if the coil is working and supply is good.
If you get a bad misfire, the ecu will dump in more fuel as its lambda feedback system sees unburnt mixture as a lean mixture that it tries to fix by adding more fuel.
The 123 system is really well made and just plugs in and is fully electronic and programmable, so it just needs your coil to work, but it does cost about £400 last time I looked.
If you cant get a spark, unplug the amp at the top connector and then try grounding the negative side of the coil with a bit of wire and see if you can get a spark at the king lead. It will be pretty weedy, as you dont have a capacitor to allow the coil to discharge properly, but you should get something if the coil is working and supply is good.
If you get a bad misfire, the ecu will dump in more fuel as its lambda feedback system sees unburnt mixture as a lean mixture that it tries to fix by adding more fuel.
pb450 said:
Talk to the boys at Lloyd Specialist Developments abouth their Canems install. Had it on mine several years ago and haven't looked back. Mind you, I sold the Chimaera TODAY - but that's a different story, and not because of poor running or any deficiency. Great car!
Knowledgeable guys apparently but I’ve heard a few horror stories about the quality of their installs.From what I’ve read I’d only consider taking my car to either kits and classics or powers.
Belle427 said:
Knowledgeable guys apparently but I’ve heard a few horror stories about the quality of their installs.
From what I’ve read I’d only consider taking my car to either kits and classics or powers.
The same person who had been giving Lloyds a hard time on here is now giving Alex Wheatley a similar hard time.From what I’ve read I’d only consider taking my car to either kits and classics or powers.
Lloyds didn't respond as far as I am aware. Alex W has chosen to take issue with having his business damaged.
Perhaps what I am saying without taking sides is that you need more than one opinion to make an informed decision.
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