Ferrari Performance (or lack of) Question...
Discussion
I've been watching F1 for nearly 30 years enthusiastically but very much a layman and no expert.
I'm loving this year's midfield action. Seems much closer with lots of nose to tail action, for me it's not all about what happens at the front.
I feel with Ferrari's performance we are really missing out on the havoc/thrills that would be Verstappen vs. Leclerc.
Can anyone in simple terms give any insight as to why Ferrari are floundering? Also their new team principle (as I understood it) was going to push technical development in different directions than previously, is that why they are coming unstuck?
Does anyone know what it is they are trying that isn't working?
I'm loving this year's midfield action. Seems much closer with lots of nose to tail action, for me it's not all about what happens at the front.
I feel with Ferrari's performance we are really missing out on the havoc/thrills that would be Verstappen vs. Leclerc.
Can anyone in simple terms give any insight as to why Ferrari are floundering? Also their new team principle (as I understood it) was going to push technical development in different directions than previously, is that why they are coming unstuck?
Does anyone know what it is they are trying that isn't working?
Essentially they based their car around a cheat (the suggestion is they found a way to bypass the fuel flow meter and were burning gearbox oil in the combustion chamber to increase power/economy).
Since the cars are somewhat fixed for 2020/21, they now find themselves stuck with a design philosophy that they can't power seeing as their (illegal) extra engine power can't drive the car with it's drag inducing high downforce. So they can either be slow on the straights producing a lot of downforce or slow in the corners by trimming off the wings.
Or that's at least a very (very) basic understanding.
Since the cars are somewhat fixed for 2020/21, they now find themselves stuck with a design philosophy that they can't power seeing as their (illegal) extra engine power can't drive the car with it's drag inducing high downforce. So they can either be slow on the straights producing a lot of downforce or slow in the corners by trimming off the wings.
Or that's at least a very (very) basic understanding.
Edited by LaurasOtherHalf on Sunday 30th August 20:53
MikeStroud said:
Thanks both.
Would it be true that Maurizio Arrivabene was responsible for approving/allowing the cheat and that is why he was replaced?
Does Mattia Binotto have the confidence of the management there despite this year's results so far? Or was he implicated in the cheat too?
He's not been fired so I imagine he wasn't the one who instigated the cheating - and probably does know who did. Otherwise they'd have scape-goated him by now.Would it be true that Maurizio Arrivabene was responsible for approving/allowing the cheat and that is why he was replaced?
Does Mattia Binotto have the confidence of the management there despite this year's results so far? Or was he implicated in the cheat too?
wibble cb said:
I think the word cheating is unsubstantiated, they definitely found a loophole that they then exploited, now that this loophole has been clarified with the FIA, and they are back to adhering to the rules, they have clearly lost performance . All teams do this, they just got caught!
No all teams do not break technical regulations, they push the sporting regs but they can without severe punishment. Break technical regs and like Tyrrell from 1986 they can be disqualified from the whole season. Or BAR in 2005 DQd from 1 races and banned from two others.FourWheelDrift said:
wibble cb said:
I think the word cheating is unsubstantiated, they definitely found a loophole that they then exploited, now that this loophole has been clarified with the FIA, and they are back to adhering to the rules, they have clearly lost performance . All teams do this, they just got caught!
No all teams do not break technical regulations, they push the sporting regs but they can without severe punishment. Break technical regs and like Tyrrell from 1986 they can be disqualified from the whole season. Or BAR in 2005 DQd from 1 races and banned from two others.What the FIA and Ferrari did last year was shameful to the whole sport. If (and let’s face it they were) Ferrari were in breach of the regulations last year they should have been thrown out. Redbull, Renault and McLaren were effectively penalised financially and in history by what was done...
The actions of the FIA in this case are an absolute disgrace.
It is vital for the integrity of “sport” that the governing body are impartial and transparent.
The excuse that revealing what has happened would infringe on Ferrari’s intellectual property holds no water for me.
The truth of the matter, the findings of the FIA investigation and justification for why no penalties could easily be revealed by the FIA at summary level with no IP loss.
Stinks to me.
It is vital for the integrity of “sport” that the governing body are impartial and transparent.
The excuse that revealing what has happened would infringe on Ferrari’s intellectual property holds no water for me.
The truth of the matter, the findings of the FIA investigation and justification for why no penalties could easily be revealed by the FIA at summary level with no IP loss.
Stinks to me.
It's definitely shady and the governening body should be transparent.. the fact it hasn't been just demonstrates how disingenuous the FIA can be and how likely it is that collision occurs on a regular basis.
However, they have basically done their job to the extent Ferrari have been punished. The other teams are clearly happy with that now they've seen how Ferrari were punished - I say 'clearly happy' as they've all dropped their threats to force the FIA to reveal the terms of the deal.
Their customers aren't happy of course.. can't help but think Ferrari should be supplying the the PU for free this year as it's definitely not the PU they signed up for as customers.
However, they have basically done their job to the extent Ferrari have been punished. The other teams are clearly happy with that now they've seen how Ferrari were punished - I say 'clearly happy' as they've all dropped their threats to force the FIA to reveal the terms of the deal.
Their customers aren't happy of course.. can't help but think Ferrari should be supplying the the PU for free this year as it's definitely not the PU they signed up for as customers.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If Ferrari truly are this screwed for 2 years I think they’d have rather taken the disqualification and a £20M fine!
They truly are screwed. And about to have their pants pulled down at home - not once, or twice... But three times. Happy anniversary Ferrari 
I imagine there was a genuine concern that being officially labelled cheats could upset the road car business.. now not a good time for any car maker to be proven to be lying about tricking sensors to pass efficiency tests etc..
In effect instead of being dq'd for the season(s) they were using the cheat, they're effectively dq'd from this season and next. The teams that should have finished higher last season had they been dq'd now finish higher this season and next by the looks of it.
It all sort of fits and makes sense. It's just the shadiness of such dealings that's disappointing.
sandman77 said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If Ferrari truly are this screwed for 2 years I think they’d have rather taken the disqualification and a £20M fine!
Why? So they would lose out on the 2019 prise money, pay a £20m fine and still be screwed for 2 years? They could have vetoed the freeze on engine development and could be running their new PU already. However they accepted the new rules - that was surely part of the backroom deal..
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If Ferrari truly are this screwed for 2 years I think they’d have rather taken the disqualification and a £20M fine!
I'm convinced Ferrari threatened to take their toys away if the FIA had publicly exposed Ferrari as cheating. Their "special relationship" resulted in the private agreement which is blatantly wrong. Had it been any other team I'm sure the outcome would have been different. The unique circumstances of this year's championship has taken the spotlight off of Ferrari for now.A fine for Ferrari would be an insult. I'm sure I read somewhere that Redbull lost $24M in their share of the prize money as a result of coming 3rd rather than 2nd in 2019.
breamster said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
If Ferrari truly are this screwed for 2 years I think they’d have rather taken the disqualification and a £20M fine!
I'm convinced Ferrari threatened to take their toys away if the FIA had publicly exposed Ferrari as cheating. Their "special relationship" resulted in the private agreement which is blatantly wrong. Had it been any other team I'm sure the outcome would have been different. The unique circumstances of this year's championship has taken the spotlight off of Ferrari for now.A fine for Ferrari would be an insult. I'm sure I read somewhere that Redbull lost $24M in their share of the prize money as a result of coming 3rd rather than 2nd in 2019.
TheDeuce said:
Not quite...
They could have vetoed the freeze on engine development and could be running their new PU already. However they accepted the new rules - that was surely part of the backroom deal..
I think your previous post could be between the lines most likely. The teams that financially lost out to them in previous years get more this year and next when they presumably will need it more (post-covid).They could have vetoed the freeze on engine development and could be running their new PU already. However they accepted the new rules - that was surely part of the backroom deal..
Plus your point about cheating makes some sense, even if I think Ferrari wouldn't care less about it!
The only unknown issue is how it's still shafted the Ferrari customer teams Haas and Alfa Romeo.
Has the Concorde Agreement given them more rights in return for being saddled with the Ferrari unit? Gunther seemed pretty unequivocal yesterday, they wouldn't be ditching the Ferrari bits. Have they been given some of Ferrari's slice of the pie as a further punishment?
MikeStroud said:
Thanks both.
Would it be true that Maurizio Arrivabene was responsible for approving/allowing the cheat and that is why he was replaced?
Does Mattia Binotto have the confidence of the management there despite this year's results so far? Or was he implicated in the cheat too?
I believe that putting the head technical guy in charge of the team was a mistakeWould it be true that Maurizio Arrivabene was responsible for approving/allowing the cheat and that is why he was replaced?
Does Mattia Binotto have the confidence of the management there despite this year's results so far? Or was he implicated in the cheat too?
The skill sets of Wolff and Horner is completely different from Allison and Newey. And I am not sure that Binotto was ever as gifted as the latter. Someone lead Ferrari into this cul-de-sac and Arrivabene was a talented marketing guy.
Binotto will have the confidence of the management team right up to the point when he is replaced.
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