Surge Protection for EV's
Discussion
Hi All,
I have an issue with an Audi A3 e-tron that has been damaged by a power surge.
Audi are (up to now.. 3 weeks) not being very helpful in the slightest in confirming any surge protection fitted to the car or not. Wanting me to either claim on car insurance or pay for repairs myself. The starting bill being over £2k - with no full cost declared!
Their claim is that the manual has a disclaimer (not very clear on p116 of 400+) that users should disconnect in event of electrical storm.
From discussion with electrical professionals a Type 1 or Type 2 surge protection would have saved any serious damage to the car.
Also surge protection is not currently mandated for Home EV charge points nor house consumer units (unless new build / re-wires).
Other manufacturers I have queried (Tesla, Kia and Hyundai) all inform me that their cars have surge protection and whilst advise unplugging if possible, appreciate that is not always possible (e.g. storm in night etc) that having them plugged in is expected behaviour and causes no issues.
I've raised with a few car sites e.g. What Car, Autocar and Which, along with Honest John and The Times... and awaiting responses, this would seem to be a black hole of risk that a lot of EV owners are not being made aware of.
Appreciate any feedback or help anyone can give.
I have an issue with an Audi A3 e-tron that has been damaged by a power surge.
Audi are (up to now.. 3 weeks) not being very helpful in the slightest in confirming any surge protection fitted to the car or not. Wanting me to either claim on car insurance or pay for repairs myself. The starting bill being over £2k - with no full cost declared!
Their claim is that the manual has a disclaimer (not very clear on p116 of 400+) that users should disconnect in event of electrical storm.
From discussion with electrical professionals a Type 1 or Type 2 surge protection would have saved any serious damage to the car.
Also surge protection is not currently mandated for Home EV charge points nor house consumer units (unless new build / re-wires).
Other manufacturers I have queried (Tesla, Kia and Hyundai) all inform me that their cars have surge protection and whilst advise unplugging if possible, appreciate that is not always possible (e.g. storm in night etc) that having them plugged in is expected behaviour and causes no issues.
I've raised with a few car sites e.g. What Car, Autocar and Which, along with Honest John and The Times... and awaiting responses, this would seem to be a black hole of risk that a lot of EV owners are not being made aware of.
Appreciate any feedback or help anyone can give.
I believe cars are CE marked which means they confirm to appropriate European product standard directives. One of these is EMC - electromagnetic compatibility. This has "protection requirements" which state the product should not cause electromagnetic interference or be unduly susceptible to it when used as intended in it’s intended environment. Products connected to the mains need to have a level of "surge immunity" where "surge" refers to power line disturbances which originate from lightning activity. Standards are published on test levels and testing methods for example IEC 61000-4-5. From memory the levels for the industrial environment products are not that powerful and easy to protect against, certainly for a multi 10kWs converter. Did you have a thunderstorm with a very local strike, anything else damaged? My experience of protection devices is that they can fail themselves where nothing else was damaged, so maybe the case here. Can you get Audi to be more specific what is damaged?
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
Yes there was a lightning strike in the area.
It damaged phone, sky tv, modem, televisions and my home charging unit. Several other properties in the area also lost similar devices but no car!
I've been waiting on Audi to confirm total damage as even if I wanted to claim on insurance they want to know the full claim cost before approving.
Their only response up to now is that they need to replace the charge interface for £2k+ before they can diagnose further!
It damaged phone, sky tv, modem, televisions and my home charging unit. Several other properties in the area also lost similar devices but no car!
I've been waiting on Audi to confirm total damage as even if I wanted to claim on insurance they want to know the full claim cost before approving.
Their only response up to now is that they need to replace the charge interface for £2k+ before they can diagnose further!
I have a leased Audi A3 e-tron and during overnight charging the car was been damaged by a power surge. The car has been unable to be fixed by Audi under any form of warranty and from their final written response the liability for any such damage lies with the owners of vehicles - i.e. the car has no surge protection and users are responsible to get surge protection fitted to their homes!
The car was being charged by an approved home charger (Rolec Tethered) - and from my investigations on home chargers it seems that the regulations also do not require surge protection to be installed at this point either.
The insurance company have reviewed/assessed the damage and as this is the first time it's happened are unwilling to invest time/money/effort in pursuing Audi further.
As such I have been left with the only option to claim on my insurance policy to repair the car in the short term and raise a dispute claim with the car ombudsmen to try and recover the costs incurred via them or small claims court if not.
Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated as all of my attempts at raising this issue with regulatory bodies are not getting very far and it will happen again in future!
The car was being charged by an approved home charger (Rolec Tethered) - and from my investigations on home chargers it seems that the regulations also do not require surge protection to be installed at this point either.
The insurance company have reviewed/assessed the damage and as this is the first time it's happened are unwilling to invest time/money/effort in pursuing Audi further.
As such I have been left with the only option to claim on my insurance policy to repair the car in the short term and raise a dispute claim with the car ombudsmen to try and recover the costs incurred via them or small claims court if not.
Any advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated as all of my attempts at raising this issue with regulatory bodies are not getting very far and it will happen again in future!
Requirements for Electrical Installations, 18th edition states that consumer units should be fitted with surge protection, they are also recommending the use of arc detection circuit breakers. A significant amount of electronics are featuring in homes these days and it is quite surprising just how dirty the mains supply is.
Im not to sure how this would be best approached in terms of redress as the surge could literally have been produced anywhere in the electrical network and it could have been lightning someplace.
https://www.lewelectrical.co.uk/2018/08/29/18th-ed...
https://www.lsp-international.com/surge-protection...
Ive fitted a few boards with surge protection and that has been in the consumer unit. Ive only ever seen on consumer unit where the surge protection operated and took out the main fuse. The surge devices pretty much u/s after it but it protected the equipment. However im not to sure about heavy current chargers dependant on semiconductors and the effect that could have on the vehicle electronics if a surge occurred.
By rights the charger equipment should be of a type that is able to deal with such mains disturbances. They dont happen regularly but they do happen. and a bit more than what you would expect.
Going forward protecting a rechargeable car id be looking at putting in a surge protection at the consumer unit as close as possible to the incoming supply. Id also be inclined to have a second surge protection device near the final connection to the car charger. Also keep a spare one just incase it does activate and your left with no protection. Having a spare one that you can put in is a good idea.
Im not to sure how this would be best approached in terms of redress as the surge could literally have been produced anywhere in the electrical network and it could have been lightning someplace.
https://www.lewelectrical.co.uk/2018/08/29/18th-ed...
https://www.lsp-international.com/surge-protection...
Ive fitted a few boards with surge protection and that has been in the consumer unit. Ive only ever seen on consumer unit where the surge protection operated and took out the main fuse. The surge devices pretty much u/s after it but it protected the equipment. However im not to sure about heavy current chargers dependant on semiconductors and the effect that could have on the vehicle electronics if a surge occurred.
By rights the charger equipment should be of a type that is able to deal with such mains disturbances. They dont happen regularly but they do happen. and a bit more than what you would expect.
Going forward protecting a rechargeable car id be looking at putting in a surge protection at the consumer unit as close as possible to the incoming supply. Id also be inclined to have a second surge protection device near the final connection to the car charger. Also keep a spare one just incase it does activate and your left with no protection. Having a spare one that you can put in is a good idea.
As RS states, I am really surprised that the charger didn't protect the vehicle. They normally have a varistor on the input to protect them from big surges.
For example, I recently plugged a 110V PSU into a 240V supply and the varistor protected it.
Sounds more like a charger fault to me.
If it was a surge of such significance, have other people in the surrounding area suffer too ?
When was it ? Where was it ?
Could have a look at the (limited) data at work to see if the grid was doing anything funny if it was on a local circuit.
For example, I recently plugged a 110V PSU into a 240V supply and the varistor protected it.
Sounds more like a charger fault to me.
If it was a surge of such significance, have other people in the surrounding area suffer too ?
When was it ? Where was it ?
Could have a look at the (limited) data at work to see if the grid was doing anything funny if it was on a local circuit.
Edited by Gary C on Wednesday 2nd December 22:36
I see this is a repeat of a topic started on the 5th September to which only I replied, here is my post again:
I believe cars are CE marked which means they confirm to appropriate European product standard directives. One of these is EMC - electromagnetic compatibility. This has "protection requirements" which state the product should not cause electromagnetic interference or be unduly susceptible to it when used as intended in it’s intended environment. Products connected to the mains need to have a level of "surge immunity" where "surge" refers to power line disturbances which originate from lightning activity. Standards are published on test levels and testing methods for example IEC 61000-4-5. From memory the levels for the industrial environment products are not that powerful and easy to protect against, certainly for a multi 10kWs converter. Did you have a thunderstorm with a very local strike, anything else damaged? My experience of protection devices is that they can fail themselves where nothing else was damaged, so maybe the case here. Can you get Audi to be more specific what is damaged?
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
The car will have some surge immunity either intrinsic or including specific protection devices. Readily available protection devices probably will only have comparable energy capability and so if the strike is very close will be over whelmed themselves and be destroyed.
At the very least Audio are being very mean in not fixing an uncommon problem. I think you have a case to take up with trading standards, car does not confirm to European directive Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) 2014/30/EU translated into UK law.
I believe cars are CE marked which means they confirm to appropriate European product standard directives. One of these is EMC - electromagnetic compatibility. This has "protection requirements" which state the product should not cause electromagnetic interference or be unduly susceptible to it when used as intended in it’s intended environment. Products connected to the mains need to have a level of "surge immunity" where "surge" refers to power line disturbances which originate from lightning activity. Standards are published on test levels and testing methods for example IEC 61000-4-5. From memory the levels for the industrial environment products are not that powerful and easy to protect against, certainly for a multi 10kWs converter. Did you have a thunderstorm with a very local strike, anything else damaged? My experience of protection devices is that they can fail themselves where nothing else was damaged, so maybe the case here. Can you get Audi to be more specific what is damaged?
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
The car will have some surge immunity either intrinsic or including specific protection devices. Readily available protection devices probably will only have comparable energy capability and so if the strike is very close will be over whelmed themselves and be destroyed.
At the very least Audio are being very mean in not fixing an uncommon problem. I think you have a case to take up with trading standards, car does not confirm to European directive Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) 2014/30/EU translated into UK law.
To add some more details on the points raised.
There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
mateus77 said:
To add some more details on the points raised.
There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
I’m not being difficult here because maybe there is a different I haven’t figured out. However, are you also going after the tv manufacturer for the same?There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
Most electrical items have a level of surge protection in them, if only to comply with the regulations about messing up the power for everything else. I'd be very surprised if the electronics in a car did not .... but it sounds like they don't.
You're never going to protect from a lightning strike to your exposed feed cable into the house - which tends to be a problem in country areas. In urban areas, wires tend to be buried. Stopping a local strike would need a 100 - 200 kA level of suppression which is deep into 4 figures. A few 10s of kA of suppression is a few hundred quid, and will stop most of it.
How have they "proved" it is a surge? I'm guessing there is a stack of blown up voltage dependent resistors on the the board, which would suggest it has taken a battering. Problem is that there is no one obvious to blame - Audi will be saying "you've abused it", the house insurer will say "what lightning strike" and the power company will be saying "we know nothing". Not pleasant.
Edit having seen the update - do you need to proceed with a house insurance claim - there seems to be plenty of evidence of a lightning strike. If your ground rod has been blown out, it was a big one, and most surge protection would have failed.
You're never going to protect from a lightning strike to your exposed feed cable into the house - which tends to be a problem in country areas. In urban areas, wires tend to be buried. Stopping a local strike would need a 100 - 200 kA level of suppression which is deep into 4 figures. A few 10s of kA of suppression is a few hundred quid, and will stop most of it.
How have they "proved" it is a surge? I'm guessing there is a stack of blown up voltage dependent resistors on the the board, which would suggest it has taken a battering. Problem is that there is no one obvious to blame - Audi will be saying "you've abused it", the house insurer will say "what lightning strike" and the power company will be saying "we know nothing". Not pleasant.
Edit having seen the update - do you need to proceed with a house insurance claim - there seems to be plenty of evidence of a lightning strike. If your ground rod has been blown out, it was a big one, and most surge protection would have failed.
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 2nd December 23:26
pghstochaj said:
mateus77 said:
To add some more details on the points raised.
There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
I’m not being difficult here because maybe there is a different I haven’t figured out. However, are you also going after the tv manufacturer for the same?There was an electrical/lightning storm in the area that caused the surge, this was confirmed by Western Power (issue on 12th August at around 1am).
There was damage to several other items in house, tvs, sky, phones and modem kit etc all smoked. Also similar to other properties in the street.
The charging unit itself was blown out and repaired under goodwill. Investigating that in more detail at present shows a risk assessment deemed surge protection not required under current regulations they are not mandated.
I will raise this further with them to look at getting one retro fitted in line with it.
The case with the Motor Ombudsmen is currently the only means of escalation and I'm looking to get this raised wherever possible for other people as the regs need to catch up..and quickly!
The power companies policy/ standards do say that all devices should have adequate surge protection...
rxe said:
Most electrical items have a level of surge protection in them, if only to comply with the regulations about messing up the power for everything else. I'd be very surprised if the electronics in a car did not .... but it sounds like they don't.
You're never going to protect from a lightning strike to your exposed feed cable into the house - which tends to be a problem in country areas. In urban areas, wires tend to be buried. Stopping a local strike would need a 100 - 200 kA level of suppression which is deep into 4 figures. A few 10s of kA of suppression is a few hundred quid, and will stop most of it.
How have they "proved" it is a surge? I'm guessing there is a stack of blown up voltage dependent resistors on the the board, which would suggest it has taken a battering. Problem is that there is no one obvious to blame - Audi will be saying "you've abused it", the house insurer will say "what lightning strike" and the power company will be saying "we know nothing". Not pleasant.
Edit having seen the update - do you need to proceed with a house insurance claim - there seems to be plenty of evidence of a lightning strike. If your ground rod has been blown out, it was a big one, and most surge protection would have failed.
I've done a house insurance claim for the contents. You're never going to protect from a lightning strike to your exposed feed cable into the house - which tends to be a problem in country areas. In urban areas, wires tend to be buried. Stopping a local strike would need a 100 - 200 kA level of suppression which is deep into 4 figures. A few 10s of kA of suppression is a few hundred quid, and will stop most of it.
How have they "proved" it is a surge? I'm guessing there is a stack of blown up voltage dependent resistors on the the board, which would suggest it has taken a battering. Problem is that there is no one obvious to blame - Audi will be saying "you've abused it", the house insurer will say "what lightning strike" and the power company will be saying "we know nothing". Not pleasant.
Edit having seen the update - do you need to proceed with a house insurance claim - there seems to be plenty of evidence of a lightning strike. If your ground rod has been blown out, it was a big one, and most surge protection would have failed.
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 2nd December 23:26
Interesting re. The ground rod didn't take the surge, it went through consumer unit, through ev charger to car.
Engineer who assessed the damage said any type 2 or better would have saved the lot.
mateus77 said:
galtezza said:
NDA said:
Is a lightning strike an 'act of God'? It certainly used to be in ancient times. 
Still ‘Force majeure’ 
Guess that’s Uk..
Where we live they still play the act of god card
granada203028 said:
I see this is a repeat of a topic started on the 5th September to which only I replied, here is my post again:
I believe cars are CE marked which means they confirm to appropriate European product standard directives. One of these is EMC - electromagnetic compatibility. This has "protection requirements" which state the product should not cause electromagnetic interference or be unduly susceptible to it when used as intended in it’s intended environment. Products connected to the mains need to have a level of "surge immunity" where "surge" refers to power line disturbances which originate from lightning activity. Standards are published on test levels and testing methods for example IEC 61000-4-5. From memory the levels for the industrial environment products are not that powerful and easy to protect against, certainly for a multi 10kWs converter. Did you have a thunderstorm with a very local strike, anything else damaged? My experience of protection devices is that they can fail themselves where nothing else was damaged, so maybe the case here. Can you get Audi to be more specific what is damaged?
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
The car will have some surge immunity either intrinsic or including specific protection devices. Readily available protection devices probably will only have comparable energy capability and so if the strike is very close will be over whelmed themselves and be destroyed.
At the very least Audio are being very mean in not fixing an uncommon problem. I think you have a case to take up with trading standards, car does not confirm to European directive Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) 2014/30/EU translated into UK law.
Electromagnetic compatibility requirements are not the same as being able to withstand a surge in the power supply. EMC requirements are to stop electromagnetic energy causing equipment malfunction or damage. This electromagnetic energy may be caused by energy spikes and testing usually covers reducing electromagnetic radiation as well as minimising the impacts of electromagnetic susceptibility. This is not the same as the potential damage caused by a spike in the power supply being directly applied to equipment.I believe cars are CE marked which means they confirm to appropriate European product standard directives. One of these is EMC - electromagnetic compatibility. This has "protection requirements" which state the product should not cause electromagnetic interference or be unduly susceptible to it when used as intended in it’s intended environment. Products connected to the mains need to have a level of "surge immunity" where "surge" refers to power line disturbances which originate from lightning activity. Standards are published on test levels and testing methods for example IEC 61000-4-5. From memory the levels for the industrial environment products are not that powerful and easy to protect against, certainly for a multi 10kWs converter. Did you have a thunderstorm with a very local strike, anything else damaged? My experience of protection devices is that they can fail themselves where nothing else was damaged, so maybe the case here. Can you get Audi to be more specific what is damaged?
CE marking is policed by trading standards in the UK I believe. So you need to complain to them that the car doesn’t meet the EMC directive “protection requirements”. This has been legally translated into UK law as then member states were required to do. Doesn’t actually mater technical levels, the car failed during reasonable use as intended, power line disturbance originating from lightning is an obvious hazard.
The car will have some surge immunity either intrinsic or including specific protection devices. Readily available protection devices probably will only have comparable energy capability and so if the strike is very close will be over whelmed themselves and be destroyed.
At the very least Audio are being very mean in not fixing an uncommon problem. I think you have a case to take up with trading standards, car does not confirm to European directive Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) 2014/30/EU translated into UK law.
Just a thought.....would it help or hinder to try and get some publicity for this problem?
The media seem to be hungry at the moment for any EV "horror stories". It would be embarrassing for Audi which might prompt them to show some goodwill.
Thinking as I type - never learn - I think there are some motoring consumer mags which help folk get redress for car problems. They might be interested in this case and it would probably be more productive than a headline in a redtop!
The media seem to be hungry at the moment for any EV "horror stories". It would be embarrassing for Audi which might prompt them to show some goodwill.
Thinking as I type - never learn - I think there are some motoring consumer mags which help folk get redress for car problems. They might be interested in this case and it would probably be more productive than a headline in a redtop!
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