20mph zone - is this signage legal
Discussion
Bobtherallyfan said:
Didn’t think you need repeaters if it is a ‘self-policing’ zone?
You don't but if they are stickers on lampposts it's just as likely that they have been stuck on by the village busybody and not by the councilTo be a zone rather than a limit there should, IIRC, be other traffic calming in place
stemll said:
You don't but if they are stickers on lampposts it's just as likely that they have been stuck on by the village busybody and not by the council
To be a zone rather than a limit there should, IIRC, be other traffic calming in place
No, they look official. To be a zone rather than a limit there should, IIRC, be other traffic calming in place
Sorry, my terminology may be at fault; I don't know the difference between a zone and a limit.
I think the difference is that zones are supposed to have physical traffic calming measures like humps, chicanes, road narrowing etc to slow cars whereas 20 limits can rely on signs only. the zones idea came from the Continent where they realised visual effects like painting narrowing white lines on the side of the road, or having no central markings can actually slow traffic down.
As daft as it sounds it's probably legal. The requirements for signs was changed recently, it used to be the case that 2 signs were usually required on entry and then repeaters every X number of yards - but now it's been significantly loosened, IIRC only one actual repeater is required.
Why is that daft? People should notice the signs. They tend to be pretty large and easily visible. Driving at much more than 20 through many urban or village spaces is daft anyway. Hooning is fun, but is for the open road.
My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Former "20mph officer" for a City Council. (seriously)
A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
Breadvan72 said:
Why is that daft? People should notice the signs. They tend to be pretty large and easily visible. Driving at much more than 20 through many urban or village spaces is daft anyway. Hooning is fun, but is for the open road.
My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Different speeds have different design requirements, stopping distances, merging and weaving lengths etc. By reducing the speed limit you can squeeze a lot more road in to the available space. A 70mph exit taper is huge. My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Red Devil said:
Johnnytheboy said:
No pics because I was driving, but a village I pass through is now a 20mph zone on all its back lanes.
What's with the secret squirrel? Why not tell us the location of this motoring paradise?Charminster in Dorset.
NB there are two, a rather iffy suburb of Bournemouth and a slightly iffy village north of Dorchester. It was the latter.
OpulentBob said:
Former "20mph officer" for a City Council. (seriously)
A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
See post above.A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
As I said in my first post, it's a bit random as you would struggle to do much more than 20 on most of the affected roads. I suppose there is one road that might constitute a rat run that already has chicanes on, but the bit I use is very narrow and windy.
As for looking at it on Google Maps, basically all the roads that aren't the two through routes are 20 limits now.
Johnnytheboy said:
OpulentBob said:
Former "20mph officer" for a City Council. (seriously)
A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
See post above.A 20mph zone generally needs to be self-enforcing before it will be signed off by the CC. This was historically by means of speed humps but the reality is, they're bad for all, ambulances and buses don't like them, there are maintenance issues etc. So the guidance was changed, and now "measures for self enforcement" include speed humps, chicanes, bends in the road over a certain angle, roundels painted on the road, or repeater lollipop signs (I believe they can be down to 150mm diameter but it's Sunday and I haven't got the guidance in front of me).
So it's probably a legal zone. One thing to bear in mind is the Police ask for them to be self-enforcing so they don't have to use resources policing every street in the zone following reports from locals about cars doing 28mph. The maniacs.
What's/Where's the road? Would it be on street view?
As I said in my first post, it's a bit random as you would struggle to do much more than 20 on most of the affected roads. I suppose there is one road that might constitute a rat run that already has chicanes on, but the bit I use is very narrow and windy.
As for looking at it on Google Maps, basically all the roads that aren't the two through routes are 20 limits now.
Johnnytheboy said:
Not a zone then... but back to q1, can the repeaters be stickers on lampposts?
That sounds like the '20s Plenty' brigade have been out and about.I've seen examples of their handiwork before.
A properly constituted 20 limit (i.e. not a zone) needs signage and repeaters. Like this.
https://goo.gl/maps/zgT5AXPCG9kPwkT5A
https://goo.gl/maps/XNffikTbgX89tsRk8
https://goo.gl/maps/Bi7auR3dJw4dux317
A 20 zone sign will look like this
https://goo.gl/maps/yZE9k8RstoGzd9i88
If traffic calming measures are present repeaters are not required.
OpulentBob said:
Would it be on street view?
The OP's use of 'now' suggests it's relatively new so unless the Google car has been there recently, probably not.If the limit is kosher there will have been a TRO for it.
Shouldn't be hard to trace if/when the OP tells us the name and location of the village.
https://goo.gl/maps/ffLFTPUQu93PvswLA
20 limit is very new, like three weeks old.
Streetview here dates from 2011
All the roads except the two north/south roads are affected.
The signs look like they are meant to be official but they are literally stickers on lamposts with a 20 roundel and a speed camera symbol.
They haven't any '20's plenty' stuff on them, so they look official, but amateurish.
20 limit is very new, like three weeks old.
Streetview here dates from 2011
All the roads except the two north/south roads are affected.
The signs look like they are meant to be official but they are literally stickers on lamposts with a 20 roundel and a speed camera symbol.
They haven't any '20's plenty' stuff on them, so they look official, but amateurish.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/setting...
Section 6 is quite straightforward. It's not the most up to date guidance format - although the detail within is still valid and is, IMO, more prescriptive than the 2019 guidance format.
Section 6 is quite straightforward. It's not the most up to date guidance format - although the detail within is still valid and is, IMO, more prescriptive than the 2019 guidance format.
OpulentBob said:
Breadvan72 said:
Why is that daft? People should notice the signs. They tend to be pretty large and easily visible. Driving at much more than 20 through many urban or village spaces is daft anyway. Hooning is fun, but is for the open road.
My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Different speeds have different design requirements, stopping distances, merging and weaving lengths etc. By reducing the speed limit you can squeeze a lot more road in to the available space. A 70mph exit taper is huge. My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Breadvan72 said:
OpulentBob said:
Breadvan72 said:
Why is that daft? People should notice the signs. They tend to be pretty large and easily visible. Driving at much more than 20 through many urban or village spaces is daft anyway. Hooning is fun, but is for the open road.
My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
Different speeds have different design requirements, stopping distances, merging and weaving lengths etc. By reducing the speed limit you can squeeze a lot more road in to the available space. A 70mph exit taper is huge. My main beef about silly speed limits is the use of 40s on multi lane roads into and out of cities. Variable speed limits on such roads would make sense: 40 during rush hours, 60 or 70 during the rest of the day, and overnight.
All of Central London is 20 zone now, with some places considering 15
Sadiq Khan wants the few that still drive in London to walk 
20 Zones radiating outwards to the outer Boroughs. Strictly enforced (trust me, I know after being caught at 24 in 20) 
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