Seat position for driving
Discussion
Bit of a stupid question, but how do you guys have your seat positioned for spirited driving? I don't seem to be able to get it 100% correct at the moment. Too close and the bottom of my legs aren't supported, further back and I don't really feel in control, tilt it back and then I can't see the tops of the wings and so on!
Proper distance for arm reach is most important. Your elbows need to be sufficiently bent that you can, for example, turn the wheel so that your right hand has rotated >180 degrees to about the eight o'clock position, without pulling your right shoulder away from the support of the seatback/side.
An elbow angle of about 120 degrees seems about right.
The lower the seat (if this is adjustable), the better you will sense chassis movement.
Make sure your knees are bent enough that you can fully depress the clutch without too much stretching; otherwise you will be prone to cramp.
An elbow angle of about 120 degrees seems about right.
The lower the seat (if this is adjustable), the better you will sense chassis movement.
Make sure your knees are bent enough that you can fully depress the clutch without too much stretching; otherwise you will be prone to cramp.
Alan, you still got the clubsports in the car?
I have the GT2/3 clubsport in my car, and my car's rather like yours, and i find this helps:
Set the seat too far back.
If i can't get the clutch pedal to the floor, let go and move forward a click.
Once i CAN get the clutch to the floor, move one more click forward.
Now with my hands at the 10 and 2 positions, my elbows are at about 100 degrees. Initially i did feel a little close to the wheel, but after a spirited drive (like 10mpg!) i felt great.
VS
I have the GT2/3 clubsport in my car, and my car's rather like yours, and i find this helps:
Set the seat too far back.
If i can't get the clutch pedal to the floor, let go and move forward a click.
Once i CAN get the clutch to the floor, move one more click forward.
Now with my hands at the 10 and 2 positions, my elbows are at about 100 degrees. Initially i did feel a little close to the wheel, but after a spirited drive (like 10mpg!) i felt great.
VS
I got some driving lessons from a proper rally/race bloke, and he made me sit a LOT closer to the wheel than I thought I should. He said that my 'normal' seating position was fine for a cruise up the highway at 110Km/h (65 MPH?) in a relaxed fashion, but for track work and fast driving I had to move much closer.
Felt very strange at first (and I still go back to my far away position for normal driving) but I found I could brace myself a lot better through fast corners etc.
Felt very strange at first (and I still go back to my far away position for normal driving) but I found I could brace myself a lot better through fast corners etc.
Sit closer than you think you need to. Maximum options available to you when your elbows are bent whilst holding the wheels. Take a look at how rally drivers sit.
My method is to move the seat forward so that with shoulders pressed back against the seat and arms outstretched, the wrists can just about rest on top of the steering wheel (ie hands are beyond the top of the wheel).
When on a tight circuit (like autocross which is a bit like sprints and hill-climbs), I add a seat squab as I am a short-arse and need to know exactly where the cones are!
My method is to move the seat forward so that with shoulders pressed back against the seat and arms outstretched, the wrists can just about rest on top of the steering wheel (ie hands are beyond the top of the wheel).
When on a tight circuit (like autocross which is a bit like sprints and hill-climbs), I add a seat squab as I am a short-arse and need to know exactly where the cones are!
On the older 70's and 80's cars there was an available option on the cars called "extended steering wheel hub". This was a variant of the steering wheel with about 30mm extra depth, which allowed you to sit further back and/or more reclined. I guess it would suit people with proportionally shorter arms and/or longer legs than the average. It's mentioned on this site: www.porsche964.nl/my964/drivingpos.php
You can fit a hub extension to anything up to the 996.
With some models it is a pain in the butt, and you may have to use a different, non-airbag wheel, but to get the right pedals-wheel relationship it's worth it.
A lot of folks find that the Porsche wheel is too far away.
Demon Tweeks has an extension that is adjustable from 24-60mm, IIRC.
With some models it is a pain in the butt, and you may have to use a different, non-airbag wheel, but to get the right pedals-wheel relationship it's worth it.
A lot of folks find that the Porsche wheel is too far away.
Demon Tweeks has an extension that is adjustable from 24-60mm, IIRC.
The problem with extension/snap on hubs is that the stalk controls can become a big stretch!
Is the wheel adjustable in 996s? Test drove one for the first time today and neglected to check. I know they aren't in the older cars.
With regards to wheel position, my high performance instructor suggests sitting back and then sticking your arms out. You are at about the right distance when you can rest the joints in your wrist on top of the wheel.
Rally drivers tend to like to sit very close and vertical, so perhaps slightly different in style to a 911.
The rally position is not hugely different in style to the 911 if you are close enough (especially if you have the bucket seats, as these are quite upright and not adjustable).
One of the very few weak areas in the 911 position IMO is the massive size of the steering wheel. I wish the wheel had an inch less diameter.
One of the very few weak areas in the 911 position IMO is the massive size of the steering wheel. I wish the wheel had an inch less diameter.
On 996, Boxster and CGT wheels you have about 40mm of reach adjustment. The entire steering column moves forward and back.
On pre-996s, yes there is an issue with stalk access as you extend the wheel closer to the driver. It depends on what your priorities are; for me having the right relationship to the wheel is the crucial one, and if I have to extend my fingers extra-far to get to the stalks, so be it. Of course there is a limit; for my average-size hands that is about 35mm of extension.
Harris I, interesting that you should raise the question of wheel diameter. There are a number of consequences of, say, increasing the diameter (reduced weighting, longer stretch of the arms when crossed over and greater tendency for the shoulder to be pulled away from the seat, fouling of the hands and arms).
Notwithstanding those problems, Ayrton Senna used to say that he wanted the biggest diameter wheel that he could fit into his (race) car. His thinking was that the human arm/hand is capable of a movement that is only X amount small and subtle. The bigger the steering wheel, the lesser the amount of front wheel deflection that will be effected by that X amount of arm/hand movement. Ergo, the bigger the steering wheel, the more precisely the driver can steer.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 26th June 10:29
On pre-996s, yes there is an issue with stalk access as you extend the wheel closer to the driver. It depends on what your priorities are; for me having the right relationship to the wheel is the crucial one, and if I have to extend my fingers extra-far to get to the stalks, so be it. Of course there is a limit; for my average-size hands that is about 35mm of extension.
Harris I, interesting that you should raise the question of wheel diameter. There are a number of consequences of, say, increasing the diameter (reduced weighting, longer stretch of the arms when crossed over and greater tendency for the shoulder to be pulled away from the seat, fouling of the hands and arms).
Notwithstanding those problems, Ayrton Senna used to say that he wanted the biggest diameter wheel that he could fit into his (race) car. His thinking was that the human arm/hand is capable of a movement that is only X amount small and subtle. The bigger the steering wheel, the lesser the amount of front wheel deflection that will be effected by that X amount of arm/hand movement. Ergo, the bigger the steering wheel, the more precisely the driver can steer.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 26th June 10:29
hi aceparts !
you may remember that the don positioned himself pretty close to the wheel, and IIRC Nick Faure used to do the same before piloting a 911 at speed.
I suggest you have 2 driving positions ( lazy road and frenetic track) and use 2 pieces of tape stuck on side of seat to line up with some feature on the centre console for each of the positions. For track suggest wrists can rest on top of wheel rim without moving shoulders from seat backrest. Forget about legs being splayed or bent to achieve this as long as you can fully depress the pedals that will do. You could fit a dished aftermarket wheel to replace the standard airbagged 993 turbo big diameter thingy and play around with hub extenders if you want a permanent single position for best arm/leg set up.
you may remember that the don positioned himself pretty close to the wheel, and IIRC Nick Faure used to do the same before piloting a 911 at speed.
I suggest you have 2 driving positions ( lazy road and frenetic track) and use 2 pieces of tape stuck on side of seat to line up with some feature on the centre console for each of the positions. For track suggest wrists can rest on top of wheel rim without moving shoulders from seat backrest. Forget about legs being splayed or bent to achieve this as long as you can fully depress the pedals that will do. You could fit a dished aftermarket wheel to replace the standard airbagged 993 turbo big diameter thingy and play around with hub extenders if you want a permanent single position for best arm/leg set up.
I use the Harris and DanH method on track. I've also got a hub extension fitted, means the gear lever is a hand drop from the wheel too. Although I did like the wheel-to-stick position in Burzel's old 993.
Sit a lot closer than you think. I just can't drive any cars these days with my arms stretched out (however, look at pix of Stirliing Moss racing-seemed to suit him!!)
In fact, I just cannot get comfortable at all in my wife's Alfa Romeo.....
Sit a lot closer than you think. I just can't drive any cars these days with my arms stretched out (however, look at pix of Stirliing Moss racing-seemed to suit him!!)
In fact, I just cannot get comfortable at all in my wife's Alfa Romeo.....
It is strange; despite being a shorty, in all other cars I don't care if I'm almost sitting in the back, but re-installing the GT3 seats has highlighted the need to feel like I've really got the beast by the neck so to speak. Even when I make a quick trip to Tescos I want to be positioned able to give it an armfull of opposite lock should the need arise!
As you have all said, I think I need to be closer than I 'think' I should be; maybe I can't accept I'm that short?
I've just stuffed the seat base with some extra foam to offer my legs some more support.
As you have all said, I think I need to be closer than I 'think' I should be; maybe I can't accept I'm that short?
I've just stuffed the seat base with some extra foam to offer my legs some more support.
aceparts_com said:
As you have all said, I think I need to be closer than I 'think' I should be; maybe I can't accept I'm that short?
I've just stuffed the seat base with some extra foam to offer my legs some more support.
LOL at Alan!!
You and me both - it took me a good few years to realise I should stop trying to have the same driving position as my lanky friends until I took up autocross and discovered a proper driving position by itself gave me a 2-5% improvement in lap times.
flemke: blast your damnably good logic - there goes my excuse to change the ugly wheel. The more I think about it, the more right you are about wheel diameter. However as you suggest, the paradox of a larger diameter wheel is that the closer you get to the wheel for optimum control, the less easy it is to make large corrections when things go awry.
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