Market for LHD Porsches
Discussion
I'm an American living in the UK and wanted to get a sense of the community's thoughts on purchasing a LHD vehicle for local use. I brought my 2010 Cayman S over with me for track days and commuting and now that I'm getting ready to return to the States I'm trying to understand if I should ship the car back or not. I plan on moving on to a dedicated racecar when I return so I'll be selling this car in either case. It's there any market for cars with the wheel on the wrong side? How much would people discount the value? The car is fully approved for normal driving but the challenges of over-taking and dealing with drive-through windows are real. Thanks for any opinions!
Shawn
PS-the car modified for heavy track use so that's another avenue in which the wheel position doesn't matter but that's a much smaller market I assume.
Shawn
PS-the car modified for heavy track use so that's another avenue in which the wheel position doesn't matter but that's a much smaller market I assume.
There is a LHD market in the U.K., but you can only really test the market by advertising it.
A really well worded ad, nice photos, on PH Classifieds, with a sensible price should give you a good indication.
Make the most of the nice weather? The market contracts considerably as soon as we move into the winter period - and that could be quite soon.
A really well worded ad, nice photos, on PH Classifieds, with a sensible price should give you a good indication.
Make the most of the nice weather? The market contracts considerably as soon as we move into the winter period - and that could be quite soon.
Good advise above. There is market but you need to be very realistic of price. Taking into consideration that you would have to pay shipping costs and that the USD is declining and that prices in the US generally are lower, you should look at mobile.de and then apply a generous discount to the offered prices. I’m sure that there will be a UK based bidder wanting a LHD car to use for track days and trips to the Continent, but the discount needs to reflect that its a very limited market (but you have few alternatives).
Thanks for the helpful responses. All good points. I'll get a posting up and see what kind of response I get. The track enthusiast market might be my best bet given the modifications to the car but since you are rarely compensated for modifications that has its own challenges. Any suggestions on selling to mainland Europe? I'll take a look at mobile.de but I'm not familiar with the logistics or fees associated with that approach.
There used to be a time not that long ago that there was a healthy LHD market here. Was a good way of getting discounted entry into the air cooled market. Plus the LHD cars didn't have silly pedal offsets.
My own 911 is LHD, having had it for 15 years I have never really had a problem in this country. Then when you get on the continent it's perfect.
Also no sun roof and no pedal offset makes it very comfortable.
My own 911 is LHD, having had it for 15 years I have never really had a problem in this country. Then when you get on the continent it's perfect.
Also no sun roof and no pedal offset makes it very comfortable.
If you can share some more details about the car, I'm happy to send you a few links to similar French Market (lhd) cars to give you a euro value steer, be aware that for registration in France (and other EU lhd markets), you'll need a CoC (certificate of conformity) for EU homologation that a NA spec car may not be able to get... Also, first registration tax (of a car registered elsewhere) can be a few thousand depending on age/co2 etc.
Happy to point you to all the cost calculators / possible market comparators for France though.
Happy to point you to all the cost calculators / possible market comparators for France though.
Yes, I've done the maths to understand the breakpoints at which it makes more sense to ship it back to the States. Of course the value of the car is all about what someone is willing to pay. So for the right person in the right location the value might be different. As others noted the only way to figure it out is to list it for sale and see what kind of response I do, or don't, get.
Thank you for the kind offer to explore the value in France/EU. I did poke around mobile.de and it looks like good starting point for Germany. Here are the basics:
2010 Cayman S (3.4L)
84,500 miles
Aqua Blue Metallic Exterior/Black Interior
PDK
Key options:
Carbon Bucket seats
Limited slip differential
PASM
Painted trim
Leather console with emblem
Illuminated stainless sills
This is the stock configuration and I would consider returning the car to (possibly without the bucket seats since aftermarket value on these is high). Over the past 5 years I've slowly modified the car to improve things at the track while balancing daily driving (1 hour commute in Los Angeles traffic). The result is car that can drive to any work or social function and then transform into a track monster. Here are the modifications/accessories available:
Interior Kenwood Navigation Unit
Sport steering wheel paddles
Schroth 6 point harnesses
Submarine mount point for harnesses
BBI bolt in rollbar
Seat belt blanks
Carbon Bucket seats
Exterior Xpel Ultimate
Rennline Radiator guards
Rhinorack AT1512
Porsche Roof Mount
Engine None
PDK Extrior cooler with pump
Brakes Girodisc Rotors
Suspension Front Swaybar
Rear Swaybar
GT3 Front Lower Control Arm
Rear Toe Links
DSC control module
Tractive DDA coilovers
Adjustable droplinks for front and rear sway bars
Toe lock plates
Wheels BBS-RSGT Two piece Forged
Competition wheel studs
Data Solo DL
Smartycam HD2.1
Purchasing these items seperately sums to ~30k GBP. Obviously I have no hope of getting that value out of them on or off the car, but I'd also rather remove them and sell them separately than receive no value for them.
Thank you for the kind offer to explore the value in France/EU. I did poke around mobile.de and it looks like good starting point for Germany. Here are the basics:
2010 Cayman S (3.4L)
84,500 miles
Aqua Blue Metallic Exterior/Black Interior
PDK
Key options:
Carbon Bucket seats
Limited slip differential
PASM
Painted trim
Leather console with emblem
Illuminated stainless sills
This is the stock configuration and I would consider returning the car to (possibly without the bucket seats since aftermarket value on these is high). Over the past 5 years I've slowly modified the car to improve things at the track while balancing daily driving (1 hour commute in Los Angeles traffic). The result is car that can drive to any work or social function and then transform into a track monster. Here are the modifications/accessories available:
Interior Kenwood Navigation Unit
Sport steering wheel paddles
Schroth 6 point harnesses
Submarine mount point for harnesses
BBI bolt in rollbar
Seat belt blanks
Carbon Bucket seats
Exterior Xpel Ultimate
Rennline Radiator guards
Rhinorack AT1512
Porsche Roof Mount
Engine None
PDK Extrior cooler with pump
Brakes Girodisc Rotors
Suspension Front Swaybar
Rear Swaybar
GT3 Front Lower Control Arm
Rear Toe Links
DSC control module
Tractive DDA coilovers
Adjustable droplinks for front and rear sway bars
Toe lock plates
Wheels BBS-RSGT Two piece Forged
Competition wheel studs
Data Solo DL
Smartycam HD2.1
Purchasing these items seperately sums to ~30k GBP. Obviously I have no hope of getting that value out of them on or off the car, but I'd also rather remove them and sell them separately than receive no value for them.
The reality is that given the movement in exchange rates because the looming Brexit cliff-edge LHD vehicles are trading at considerable premium to UK market. Just look at the new prices of a 911 ordered here or in Germany and you will see what I mean. Then it's also true in Germany you will be able to secure a discount but ordering a new car here is still much cheaper compared to the continent.
Same goes for used car values, just check where some F12s have sold recently in the UK and it's quite a shock, LHD sold here have done even worse as traditionally in the UK people trade LHS at a discount to RHD. So I would definitely not sell here and rather try and sell in the EU where you are more likely to achieve some value..
My 2 cents.
P.s. to the point of LHD trading very cheap here, I know of continental buyers snapping up the cars on collecting cars because of the astonishing prices compared to what could be achieved in their countries.. so yes.. better to sell there directly if you have a contact / way to get it there that is. All things considered you might decide that the easiest thing to do is just to add it to your shipment returning home
Same goes for used car values, just check where some F12s have sold recently in the UK and it's quite a shock, LHD sold here have done even worse as traditionally in the UK people trade LHS at a discount to RHD. So I would definitely not sell here and rather try and sell in the EU where you are more likely to achieve some value..
My 2 cents.
P.s. to the point of LHD trading very cheap here, I know of continental buyers snapping up the cars on collecting cars because of the astonishing prices compared to what could be achieved in their countries.. so yes.. better to sell there directly if you have a contact / way to get it there that is. All things considered you might decide that the easiest thing to do is just to add it to your shipment returning home
Ubermensch said:
Yes, I've done the maths to understand the breakpoints at which it makes more sense to ship it back to the States. Of course the value of the car is all about what someone is willing to pay. So for the right person in the right location the value might be different. As others noted the only way to figure it out is to list it for sale and see what kind of response I do, or don't, get.
Yes - my point being - simply put it up for sale for a bit more than the breakpoint. You don't lose, and somebody (who wants a track car) will gain. If that 'price for sale' means it doesn't sell, take it home.You could agonise over not getting a few dollars more, by trying to sell it to mainland europe, vs the stress of getting money out of someone in another country, shipping, yadda yadda.
Ubermensch said:
Purchasing these items seperately sums to ~30k GBP. Obviously I have no hope of getting that value out of them on or off the car, but I'd also rather remove them and sell them separately than receive no value for them.
So that's up to how much effort you are prepared to put in to changing parts out.Good luck, whatever you decide.
Price seems punchy for £29k standard. Here's one same age and mileage for £18.9k albeit RHD https://m.facebook.com/groups/968587889832672?view...
Ubermensch said:
£40k is up with low mileage Cayman Rs from dealers. A private sale, high mileage, LHD, heavily modified S is not going to get anywhere near that. I would suggest being more clear near the start of your ad about the cost of the big-ticket modifications like the seats, suspension and wheels. A lot of the other stuff is relatively small-fry that muddies the waters for the reader.
I'm no expert on values but I don't think you'll get many bites even if you lop £10k off...
Thanks for the constructive feedback. I appreciate it. In particuar, the point about highlighting the high value/cost options seems important to clarify in the add. I created a more detailed list of modifications and their cost with reference links but the advert doesn't allow that kind of formatting. I'll just post some numbers to clarify things.
The two really big ticket items are the carbon bucket seats which are 8500GBP new (6500GBP used) and the Tractive Suspension at 5500GBP new (3800 GBP used). I'll definitely make that clearer in the advert.
Please do continue providing links of what people believe are competitive cars as I am certainly open to modifying/accepting pricing that is in line with the market. In the case of the 19,000 GBP listed at the same year and mileage I would point out that if you add the carbon buckets at used value you're already at 25,500. With respect to the owner of that car it also lists a cracked bumper and peeling paint. I don't feel the cars conditions are comparable. Is it 4000 GBP different? Perhaps not, so your point is well taken.
As someone mentioned earlier ultimately I need to consider the price in the US, less shipping costs/hassle and see how it compares. The market is fairly good in the US and a very similar car without the seats sold for the equivalent of 27,500 GBP.
The two really big ticket items are the carbon bucket seats which are 8500GBP new (6500GBP used) and the Tractive Suspension at 5500GBP new (3800 GBP used). I'll definitely make that clearer in the advert.
Please do continue providing links of what people believe are competitive cars as I am certainly open to modifying/accepting pricing that is in line with the market. In the case of the 19,000 GBP listed at the same year and mileage I would point out that if you add the carbon buckets at used value you're already at 25,500. With respect to the owner of that car it also lists a cracked bumper and peeling paint. I don't feel the cars conditions are comparable. Is it 4000 GBP different? Perhaps not, so your point is well taken.
As someone mentioned earlier ultimately I need to consider the price in the US, less shipping costs/hassle and see how it compares. The market is fairly good in the US and a very similar car without the seats sold for the equivalent of 27,500 GBP.
Ubermensch said:
Thank you for the kind offer to explore the value in France/EU. I did poke around mobile.de and it looks like good starting point for Germany.
Sorry for the delay, busy with work!So...there is only one car for sale currently in France that is remotely comparable (its a 2011 Cayman S PDK with circa 80k)
https://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/1834311377.htm/
And it's 31,500€ (£29,000)
Registration in France would cost you (circa, I did it on my local region cost and the rough registration information from your post) 479.76€ and shipping about 1000€ (depending where you wanted it).
Therefore as 'modified' your car is overpriced by about 10,000€ for France (assuming you can get a CoC as a NA model), but ultimately as an import it would be worth less. As 'standard' its about on the money...but not sure how attractive it is compared to a French supplied car.
As other posters have said, the upgrades probably don't add the secondhand value, so depends what you can get in the US for it, whether you can put it back to standard and make it attractive to a Euro buyer (price wise) or maybe drop on a UK buyer looking for a LHD track focused Cayman S.
If you want to play about yourself, here are the links for France (use a browser with a built in translator such as Chrome if you don't speak French).
Registration cost simulator:
https://www.service-public.fr/simulateur/calcul/co...
[Requires a weird number called 'Puissance Fiscale' that you can calculate here: https://www.guide-carte-grise.info/demarches-carte... if you have the Co2 / Power (I used, 310PS and 254gCo2 as per Internet search).]
Place to buy cars in France from:
https://www.leboncoin.fr/
Good luck with whatever you do, and if you want any French specific import advice, do let me know as i've imported a few and happy to share.
Edited by j44esd on Wednesday 23 September 09:01
Edited by j44esd on Wednesday 23 September 09:04
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