Starting out in Software Testing?
Discussion
My son has recently finished Uni but has decided that he doesn't want to go into a related career (Graphic Design). He enjoyed IT at A level, and feels he shouts something IT related.
I was a BA so obviously I can give him some guidance. Having had a chat with him about the options he seems keen on testing. As a BA I've been involved in testing, but not the route into testing.
Are there recognised courses that would give him the basics needed to apply for entry level tester roles?
I was a BA so obviously I can give him some guidance. Having had a chat with him about the options he seems keen on testing. As a BA I've been involved in testing, but not the route into testing.
Are there recognised courses that would give him the basics needed to apply for entry level tester roles?
The requirements are usually a Computer Science Degree. From what I've seen in two companies though, software testing is usually low paid menial work. I used to sit next to a group who, all day, would sit and press buttons on a user interface, write what happens and chat s
t all day.
A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
t all day. A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
devnull said:
The requirements are usually a Computer Science Degree. From what I've seen in two companies though, software testing is usually low paid menial work. I used to sit next to a group who, all day, would sit and press buttons on a user interface, write what happens and chat st all day.
A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
I work in software / hardware engineering and there is a big need for testers. I don't think a compsci degree is a requirement from what I've seen although some programming background would be handy. Testing doesn't have to be low paid although it can be considered less exciting than actual development and as such is often a good way to climb the management tree if you wish.t all day. A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
Test or QA is a big deal in most tech product companies and in many places, test is a proper function with a range of roles / skills. Button pushing is very old fashioned way of doing things but does still happen a bit. Most tests should be automate-able nowadays.
I would say there are various routes in and various types of roles within test to aim for. Everything from the aforementioned repetitive manual testing - through to automated testing (scripts and test systems), through to test system development (proper software engineering)
Technologies to learn would be Python and pytest as well as some of the UI scripting stuff for automating web / phone applications e.g. selenium.
Manual test tends to be pretty menial but is a way in to a company where you can expand into the more interesting auto test roles.
The best testers I have worked with have an aptitude for testing. They want to discover interesting ways to break things and can think of the corner cases that might not have been covered in the SW design. They take pride in finding real bugs before they get out in to the wild. It takes a different mindset to be a good tester ime but those that have it tend to do quite well.
I will disagree about SW testing being a low paid menial job. There are of course some very basic button pushing type roles which will pay the lower end of the pay scales but these are a good pathway into more technical roles. In my company currently, a good tester will be paid 60k+ and ihave a fair few friends on contracts of 500 a day.
Automation is huge these days so if you can spend some time learning tools such as selenium or cucumber that would be beneficial.
As would learning the Software Development lifecycle such as Waterfall and Agile.
An qualification such as ISQTB foundation is desired and is really straight forward.
Automation is huge these days so if you can spend some time learning tools such as selenium or cucumber that would be beneficial.
As would learning the Software Development lifecycle such as Waterfall and Agile.
An qualification such as ISQTB foundation is desired and is really straight forward.
I wouldn't say a degree in computer science is required - I've worked from Junior Test Analyst all the way through to Head of Testing for various companies over the years and that has never been a requirement - As a minimum I would say that pretty much every testing job now requires at least the ISTQB Foundation certificate in Software Testing, it's pretty straight forward, and generally common sense, although it's worth swotting up on the testing terminology that ISTQB use with as it can vary at some companies. I didn't bother with the course, just paid for the exam.
It's not always low paid menial work - once you get to Test Manager level, or specialise in something like Automation, Penetration testing etc etc. then it can pay well, depending on the company that you work for.
It's not just a job sitting there pushing buttons on a UI either - there's a lot more to it, and skills can be quite different depending on what kind of testing is being done (e.g. Automation, UAT, functional/non-functional, Penetration testing etc) and on what technologies.
Strangely though, you speak to pretty much anyone in testing about how they got into it, and 90% of the time they'll tell you they 'fell into it'. It just doesn't seem to be a job that people set out to be in, it just happens.
It's not always low paid menial work - once you get to Test Manager level, or specialise in something like Automation, Penetration testing etc etc. then it can pay well, depending on the company that you work for.
It's not just a job sitting there pushing buttons on a UI either - there's a lot more to it, and skills can be quite different depending on what kind of testing is being done (e.g. Automation, UAT, functional/non-functional, Penetration testing etc) and on what technologies.
Strangely though, you speak to pretty much anyone in testing about how they got into it, and 90% of the time they'll tell you they 'fell into it'. It just doesn't seem to be a job that people set out to be in, it just happens.
There are a few routes into testing which can be followed as mentioned previously, it may be easier to consider it a quality assurance role.
Some come in as part of graduate recruitment drives, others may move sideways from product owner or 1st line support roles or there are people like myself who have moved into it from a software development career. A graduate tester role doesn't necessarily need a qualification or a relevant degree as some positions will offer the relevant training, but an understanding of process flows and independent problem analysis can be extremely advantageous.
From a services perspective, there's been a very big drive towards CICD (Continuous Integration Continuous Delivery) in recent years with a focus on automation tools such as Jenkins etc coupled with AWS integration to accelerate delivery into production.
Automation and regression from the client side has also seen a boost from services such as Browserstack.
You do sometimes still get a bit of a cultural hangover where testers are considered to be failed developers being paid peanuts to perform menial tasks but the reality is far from the truth once experience and specialism builds.
In one of my previous roles, the acceptance test team were firmly based on the business side of the fence and were seen quite rightly as guardians of quality assurance and brand reputation. Woe betide any development team hoping to sneak substandard features into production
Some come in as part of graduate recruitment drives, others may move sideways from product owner or 1st line support roles or there are people like myself who have moved into it from a software development career. A graduate tester role doesn't necessarily need a qualification or a relevant degree as some positions will offer the relevant training, but an understanding of process flows and independent problem analysis can be extremely advantageous.
From a services perspective, there's been a very big drive towards CICD (Continuous Integration Continuous Delivery) in recent years with a focus on automation tools such as Jenkins etc coupled with AWS integration to accelerate delivery into production.
Automation and regression from the client side has also seen a boost from services such as Browserstack.
You do sometimes still get a bit of a cultural hangover where testers are considered to be failed developers being paid peanuts to perform menial tasks but the reality is far from the truth once experience and specialism builds.
In one of my previous roles, the acceptance test team were firmly based on the business side of the fence and were seen quite rightly as guardians of quality assurance and brand reputation. Woe betide any development team hoping to sneak substandard features into production
fat80b said:
devnull said:
The requirements are usually a Computer Science Degree. From what I've seen in two companies though, software testing is usually low paid menial work. I used to sit next to a group who, all day, would sit and press buttons on a user interface, write what happens and chat st all day.
A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
I work in software / hardware engineering and there is a big need for testers. I don't think a compsci degree is a requirement from what I've seen although some programming background would be handy. Testing doesn't have to be low paid although it can be considered less exciting than actual development and as such is often a good way to climb the management tree if you wish.t all day. A lot of it is automated these days, so it could be a bit more interesting if he is the one who is writing the testing strategies.
Test or QA is a big deal in most tech product companies and in many places, test is a proper function with a range of roles / skills. Button pushing is very old fashioned way of doing things but does still happen a bit. Most tests should be automate-able nowadays.
I would say there are various routes in and various types of roles within test to aim for. Everything from the aforementioned repetitive manual testing - through to automated testing (scripts and test systems), through to test system development (proper software engineering)
Technologies to learn would be Python and pytest as well as some of the UI scripting stuff for automating web / phone applications e.g. selenium.
Manual test tends to be pretty menial but is a way in to a company where you can expand into the more interesting auto test roles.
The best testers I have worked with have an aptitude for testing. They want to discover interesting ways to break things and can think of the corner cases that might not have been covered in the SW design. They take pride in finding real bugs before they get out in to the wild. It takes a different mindset to be a good tester ime but those that have it tend to do quite well.
It would be a shame if you need a Computer Science Degree these days. I worked in IT for about 20 years and when I got into it we came from all manner of backgrounds. The best developer I've ever worked with didn't have a degree of any sort.
Join one of the big consultancies - you don’t need a relevant degree, and projects range from staggeringly dull to terribly interesting, just like the rest of the world. The huge advantage is that you can switch Project if it doesn’t float your boat (within reason). IMO functional testing is the dullest activity in the world (and should be full automated anyway), but I built a career on non functional stuff.
He’d be massively more attractive if he got an AWS certification or two. The challenge is being a bit useful - a lot of people get stuck because they know nothing. Someone who can code a bit of python and knows their way round AWS would be OK to start with. UI design still happens, so his degree may be useful.
I’ve been in one of the large ones for 26 years, if you want a brain dump, PM me.
He’d be massively more attractive if he got an AWS certification or two. The challenge is being a bit useful - a lot of people get stuck because they know nothing. Someone who can code a bit of python and knows their way round AWS would be OK to start with. UI design still happens, so his degree may be useful.
I’ve been in one of the large ones for 26 years, if you want a brain dump, PM me.
Could be worth looking at security testing?
Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
boultonn said:
Could be worth looking at security testing?
Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
That's a good shout. We have to pay for external pen testers for certification, and the prices they charge are eye-watering. Presumably the companies offering that service must be highly profitable as a result which generally makes for a better working environment.Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
As the others have said, the days of "exploratory testing" (aka "point and click, see what happens") are receding. Good firms will have the developers writing at least the unit tests so the testing side of things is going to be higher up at integration or system level. From the UI perspective someone has already mentioned Selenium which seems to have been on the go for years and there is also NetSparker.
Anyone who can automate browser testing (as in BrowserShots style - checking what a page looks like across OS and Devices) is going to be worth a lot to many firms.
Also worth seeing if he can also learn a tool for managing the test suite (e.g. HP QualityCenter as was, that used to be Mercury Test Director ... hey, I'm old). More senior roles will include test planning, which is basically project management for the testing side of things.
It's also worth learning how to write test results for the developers. Start big and go small. E.g. "In Application A, Module B, within Form C, Field D should not accept numbers" compared with "Field D accepts numbers, that you get to from Form C ... etc." You can see how one is easier for the developer to work down to than the other.
Flooble said:
boultonn said:
Could be worth looking at security testing?
Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
That's a good shout. We have to pay for external pen testers for certification, and the prices they charge are eye-watering. Presumably the companies offering that service must be highly profitable as a result which generally makes for a better working environment.Most companies (including mine) would jump at the chance to take on a junior with technical skills and a keen interest and get them trained up to the pen testing standard, might be more interesting that testing the same piece of software day in, day out.
As the others have said, the days of "exploratory testing" (aka "point and click, see what happens") are receding. Good firms will have the developers writing at least the unit tests so the testing side of things is going to be higher up at integration or system level. From the UI perspective someone has already mentioned Selenium which seems to have been on the go for years and there is also NetSparker.
Anyone who can automate browser testing (as in BrowserShots style - checking what a page looks like across OS and Devices) is going to be worth a lot to many firms.
Also worth seeing if he can also learn a tool for managing the test suite (e.g. HP QualityCenter as was, that used to be Mercury Test Director ... hey, I'm old). More senior roles will include test planning, which is basically project management for the testing side of things.
It's also worth learning how to write test results for the developers. Start big and go small. E.g. "In Application A, Module B, within Form C, Field D should not accept numbers" compared with "Field D accepts numbers, that you get to from Form C ... etc." You can see how one is easier for the developer to work down to than the other.
It needs to be something he can mostly learn by experience rather than up front certification. Like me he picks up stuff by seeing it in action rather than on a blackboard.
mikef said:
If the lad has a degree in graphic design then maybe usability and user experience (UX) would be a more obvious fit than quality engineering? I don’t actually know how to get in at an entry level but it seems to be a well paid line of work
I was just reading through the thread, and was about to make a similar suggestion. UI/UX designer could be a good use of his existing graphics design qualifications, and take him into the world of tech he might enjoy.
User Interface and User Experience are about how a user interacts with a product. It could be hardware or it could be software.
There's General Assembly who offer courses; https://generalassemb.ly/education/user-experience... - Can be pricey, but you get a certificate to put on the CV.
Alternatively there is some great stuff on skillshare.com which would be a lot cheaper; and he'll learn enough about the right skills he need to get a UI/UX job. (Probabaly a bunch of stuff he can use to learn about testing too!)
98elise said:
Thanks, I was hoping there was still a market for point and click testers. That way an entry level job would be easier to pick up and build on.
It needs to be something he can mostly learn by experience rather than up front certification. Like me he picks up stuff by seeing it in action rather than on a blackboard.
There are some roles but all the movement is towards automation. When the website changes daily, you can't afford to wait a week for someone to click their way through it all by hand. If he can learn at least some coding - freecodecamp or whatever - he'll be in a much better place.It needs to be something he can mostly learn by experience rather than up front certification. Like me he picks up stuff by seeing it in action rather than on a blackboard.
One route I would suggest is looking to agencies - marketing ones in particular. They are usually doing one-off pieces of work and often to silly timescales, so don't necessarily have time to build automated checks for everything. They are more likely to still rely on human eyeballs for quality control. Graphics skills will give him a double route in, potentially. I forget where you are based, if you mentioned it.
Have a google of wirehive.
The ISTQB Foundation in software testing is a good starter. It's about £1200 for a 3 day course, £800 if you do it online and then sit the exam.
Learn concepts like java script, .net etc
Guru99 is a good website.
Learn selenium.
That would get you a junior role paying around £25k.
With experience, a test lead can earn around 50/60k
Contracting £300/400 a day.
All prices outside London.
I've been doing it 18 years.
It's paid for my house, and Tesla (before I sold it when I became WFH).
Learn concepts like java script, .net etc
Guru99 is a good website.
Learn selenium.
That would get you a junior role paying around £25k.
With experience, a test lead can earn around 50/60k
Contracting £300/400 a day.
All prices outside London.
I've been doing it 18 years.
It's paid for my house, and Tesla (before I sold it when I became WFH).
Edited by manracer on Wednesday 16th September 22:52
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well that's a load of rollocks, isn't it.As a tester for the last 15 years, coming from teaching, I can't code my way out of a paper bag, yet I can still find defects in software with my eyes closed. As someone else says, a good tester should be able to take a piece of software and, with experience, exercise the code in ways that the BA or the devs haven't thought of.
Yes, there's a push to automation/shift left, however there will always be the need to have testers looking at software.
And yes, testers can't change the quality, but they can stop crap going into production.
manracer said:
The ISTQB Foundation in software testing is a good starter. It's about £1200 for a 3 day course, £800 if you do it online and then sit the exam.
Learn concepts like java script, .net etc
Guru99 is a good website.
Learn selenium.
That would get you a junior role paying around £25k.
With experience, a test lead can earn around 50/60k
Contracting £300/400 a day.
All prices outside London.
I've been doing it 18 years.
It's paid for my house, and Tesla (before I sold it when I became WFH).
Thanks, that course is the sort of thing I was thinking of.Learn concepts like java script, .net etc
Guru99 is a good website.
Learn selenium.
That would get you a junior role paying around £25k.
With experience, a test lead can earn around 50/60k
Contracting £300/400 a day.
All prices outside London.
I've been doing it 18 years.
It's paid for my house, and Tesla (before I sold it when I became WFH).
Edited by manracer on Wednesday 16th September 22:52
For my BA roles I needed various certifications to get through the door (ISEB, ITIL, PRINCE2 etc) so a few £1000 courses might be a good investment.
mikef said:
If the lad has a degree in graphic design then maybe usability and user experience (UX) would be a more obvious fit than quality engineering? I don’t actually know how to get in at an entry level but it seems to be a well paid line of work
You make a good point. I did say to him that graphic design plays a big part in IT, as so much of it is about presenting something to an end user.During Uni he had a job in a pub/restaurant and he was scathing about the POS/Ordering System as it had a crap UI.
Bobby_Mac said:
I will disagree about SW testing being a low paid menial job. There are of course some very basic button pushing type roles which will pay the lower end of the pay scales but these are a good pathway into more technical roles. In my company currently, a good tester will be paid 60k+ and ihave a fair few friends on contracts of 500 a day.
Same here, unless it's manual UI stuff which is utterly awful and I'd not advise anyone to do it.I used to be a contractor in development, Oracle and unix stuff, then went perm after 21 years. I could earn just the same as a QA if, not more. I now work as a QA doing automated stuff testing APIs and developing entire automated frameworks from the ground up. I earn quite a bit more that the developers whos stuff I test.
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