Annual Leave - how much do staff HAVE to take?
Discussion
For various reasons our staff are accruing annual leave which they either won't be able to take or don't want to take. Two options that we are considering are;
1. They can sell it.; or
2. They can carry it forward
I know there's a legal entitlement to 22(?) days plus bank holidays. Our staff get 25 days and accrue one extra day's leave for every year of service (up to a maximum of 35 days). What is the minimum amount of leave that they MUST take?
Could we let them sell all 35 days back? Could we let them carry it all forward? In reality we wouldn't but I'm just wondering what the legal rules are.
1. They can sell it.; or
2. They can carry it forward
I know there's a legal entitlement to 22(?) days plus bank holidays. Our staff get 25 days and accrue one extra day's leave for every year of service (up to a maximum of 35 days). What is the minimum amount of leave that they MUST take?
Could we let them sell all 35 days back? Could we let them carry it all forward? In reality we wouldn't but I'm just wondering what the legal rules are.
The option is they lose it.
You have to give them a holiday allocation. They don't have to take it. They have ALL year to plan.
We allow 5 days carry over with management authorisation; those then have to be taken in the first quarter.
Some companies mandate that the employee must take a minimum 2 week block within the year (financial services I think)
Holiday is not a "cash equivalent".
If they aren't able to take it due to client commitments, etc then you may need some flexibility.
I am not a lawyer.
You have to give them a holiday allocation. They don't have to take it. They have ALL year to plan.
We allow 5 days carry over with management authorisation; those then have to be taken in the first quarter.
Some companies mandate that the employee must take a minimum 2 week block within the year (financial services I think)
Holiday is not a "cash equivalent".
If they aren't able to take it due to client commitments, etc then you may need some flexibility.
I am not a lawyer.
We can carry a week over .
This year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
This year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
It’s only a legal requirement to a very few ie front line NHS + maybe a few others.
We’ve had our policy reconfirmed only last week and it was clear we will not be following that guidance so it’s a man utter maximum of 5 days carry over. So manage your leave between now and end of the year accordingly.
We’ve had our policy reconfirmed only last week and it was clear we will not be following that guidance so it’s a man utter maximum of 5 days carry over. So manage your leave between now and end of the year accordingly.
IANAL
They don't have to TAKE any leave at all. They have to be ALLOWED a certain minimum, as you say.
I suspect you would be on a sticky wicket if you allowed them to buy back enough days that would bring them under the statutory minimum.
Carrying it all forward to next year is perfectly possible but as above, typically this is capped. My employer is quite generous and lets us carry over 10 days but of course you're under no obligation to let anybody carry anything at all forward. We've all been told to keep our leave plans as they were and there won't be any additional carryover this year, which I think is perfectly reasonable.
They don't have to TAKE any leave at all. They have to be ALLOWED a certain minimum, as you say.
I suspect you would be on a sticky wicket if you allowed them to buy back enough days that would bring them under the statutory minimum.
Carrying it all forward to next year is perfectly possible but as above, typically this is capped. My employer is quite generous and lets us carry over 10 days but of course you're under no obligation to let anybody carry anything at all forward. We've all been told to keep our leave plans as they were and there won't be any additional carryover this year, which I think is perfectly reasonable.
Covid has changed everything here. You have to allow staff to carry over holiday for up to 2 years.
You can force staff to take time off e.g running on skeleton staff for 2 weeks over Xmas.
In my mind this is about managing it over the next 18 months and setting clear expectations with staff.
You can force staff to take time off e.g running on skeleton staff for 2 weeks over Xmas.
In my mind this is about managing it over the next 18 months and setting clear expectations with staff.
Thanks all.
It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
egor110 said:
We can carry a week over .
This year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
Could staff book leave but then do overtime on the days off? I used to do that a lot in my younger years when I had 30 days leave p/a and wanted cashThis year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
Some companies have a condition written into the contract that employees must take a minimum of 2 consecutive weeks holiday every year. It's to help ensure that any fraud/misappropriation is uncovered, the theory being that it forces a reasonable time away to stop someone from covering their tracks.
But that aside, there is no legal mandate. Most companies operate a "use it or lose it" policy, unless it is in the companies interests to let people carry over or sell holiday.
But that aside, there is no legal mandate. Most companies operate a "use it or lose it" policy, unless it is in the companies interests to let people carry over or sell holiday.
warp9 said:
Covid has changed everything here. You have to allow staff to carry over holiday for up to 2 years.
Not entirely correct. The key wording (as given on https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-an... ) is whether it was "reasonably practicable" for an employee to take their leave.That's not a blanket "I didn't want to take my two weeks in Benidorm, so I'll use it next year" but more "I wasn't able to because I had to work continuously due to Covid".
Countdown said:
Thanks all.
It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
Issue is say they all take over the maximum so 10 days that means all workers have 35 days leave how will operations work next year if no one carries forward leave into 2022 It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
vindaloo79 said:
egor110 said:
We can carry a week over .
This year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
Could staff book leave but then do overtime on the days off? I used to do that a lot in my younger years when I had 30 days leave p/a and wanted cashThis year has been a nightmare though as when lockdown happened we were key workers so we had staff off sick and staff cancelling leave as they couldn't anywhere .
This was good as we had staff off sick so we could get them covered but bad as xmas is our busiest period and we have lots of staff owed leave .
However everything is in the air this year and if we're short staffed and somebody is prepared to come in a do a day or two we'd be mental to turn them down.
Welshbeef said:
Issue is say they all take over the maximum so 10 days that means all workers have 35 days leave how will operations work next year if no one carries forward leave into 2022
But surely, every company has the statement along the lines of 'you may carry X days holiday over at your managers discretion, no? (If not, they are crazy not to)
We have the same issues unravelling here, people didnt take leave while on Furlough, the smarter ones have pre-booked lots of leave between now and end March '21. The less smart ones are quite probably going to lose it, when they try to a) all book the end of March off simultaneously or b) all try to carry tonnes of holiday over into 2021/22.
I'll be enjoying my nice long Christmas break from home booked in August, for sure!
I am lucky in that I have a departmental manager who actually 'manages' these issues, it seems many dont!
snotrag said:
Welshbeef said:
Issue is say they all take over the maximum so 10 days that means all workers have 35 days leave how will operations work next year if no one carries forward leave into 2022
But surely, every company has the statement along the lines of 'you may carry X days holiday over at your managers discretion, no? 
In my team there is (or should be) at least 1 if not 2 people able to cover each role. There's actually a shared Departmental calendar on the HR system where the Managers can see who else is on leave before approving
Edited by Countdown on Thursday 1st October 13:31
vindaloo79 said:
Could staff book leave but then do overtime on the days off? I used to do that a lot in my younger years when I had 30 days leave p/a and wanted cash
I did that at my old place a few times without noticing it was me I was covering! New place we can take 40 hours across without getting permission. Anything over that and we need permission. They'll normally only allow it if when you've requested holiday jta been rejected for whatever reason.
deckster said:
warp9 said:
Covid has changed everything here. You have to allow staff to carry over holiday for up to 2 years.
Not entirely correct. The key wording (as given on https://www.gov.uk/guidance/holiday-entitlement-an... ) is whether it was "reasonably practicable" for an employee to take their leave.That's not a blanket "I didn't want to take my two weeks in Benidorm, so I'll use it next year" but more "I wasn't able to because I had to work continuously due to Covid".
Dr Jekyll said:
How does this work with umbrella companies? When I was contracting I was PAYE with an umbrella and took about 2 days holiday a year.
Don't they usually roll up your holiday allowance into your day rate? with mine i get something like 12.5% on top of my gross salary to cover 28 days holiday to satisfy the euro time directive crap.Countdown said:
Thanks all.
It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
My understanding is it's illegal for an employer to buy back any leave included in the statutory minimum. It looks like we'll be allowing them to sell/ or carry forward anything over 10 days. i.e. HR are insisting that people have at least 10 days annual leave this year even if it is being sat at home watching TV. So potentially up to 25 days can be sold or carried forward (which might create problems next year but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
GOV.UK said:
Getting paid instead of taking holidays
The only time someone can get paid in place of taking statutory leave (known as ‘payment in lieu’) is when they leave their job. Employers must pay for untaken statutory leave, even if the worker is dismissed for gross misconduct.
If an employer offers more than 5.6 weeks’ annual leave, they can agree separate arrangements for the extra leave.
From here: https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/taki...The only time someone can get paid in place of taking statutory leave (known as ‘payment in lieu’) is when they leave their job. Employers must pay for untaken statutory leave, even if the worker is dismissed for gross misconduct.
If an employer offers more than 5.6 weeks’ annual leave, they can agree separate arrangements for the extra leave.
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