IWM Treble One

[Simpo Two]

Just caught the end of this on Talking pictures (Freeview 81).

'1959 film featuring the 111 Squadron, Black Arrows aerobatic team'.

Quite watchable. Flying nine black Hunters, evidently the precursor to the Reds as the formations etc looked identical. When did they stop being squadron specific (Eric)?

[Tony1963]

One of the 22 Hunters that set a new record for aircraft in a loop is kept at the Wattisham museum. Seen here at a families day

[aeropilot]

Simpo Two said:

Just caught the end of this on Talking pictures (Freeview 81).

'1959 film featuring the 111 Squadron, Black Arrows aerobatic team'.

Quite watchable. Flying nine black Hunters, evidently the precursor to the Reds as the formations etc looked identical. When did they stop being squadron specific (Eric)?

1963, was the last year the RAF display team was a front line squadron, when the official RAF display team that year was the Firebirds, of 56 Sqn, flying the Lightning F.1A.

[Eric Mc]

The MoD decided that the Lightning was too big and expensive to be sued as an aerobatic team aircraft, so they decreed that all future RAF display teams should use trainers.

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

The MoD decided that the Lightning was too big and expensive to be sued as an aerobatic team aircraft, so they decreed that all future RAF display teams should use trainers.

Good typo!

The Lightning wasn't noted for its turning circle (or range) so trainers would probably give a better display.

[Eric Mc]

Not a typo - I was referring to trainer aircraft.

Big powerful aircraft can make for spectacular displays - the Thunderbirds used F4 Phantoms for a few years. In fact, they even used the F-105 Thunderchief for a short while, but the Thud really was too cumbersome for formation displays.

[aeropilot]

Simpo Two said:

The Lightning wasn't noted for its turning circle

Rubbish

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

Not a typo - I was referring to trainer aircraft.

You said sued not used

aeropilot said:

Simpo Two said:

The Lightning wasn't noted for its turning circle

Rubbish

Well can you add some figures vs Gnat/Hawk to that rather blunt statement? Doesn't turn below 300kts for starters.

[Eric Mc]

As the Americans demomstrated, team display flying is not all about being amazingly manoeuverable.

The reason for the switch to trainer aircraft was all about cutting costs.

[silverfoxcc]

Was going to give a heads up on this channel. Also check out the little snippets called glimpses. ATM there is a lot of IWM stuff on there esp from during WW2 plus all those lovely Brtish B films f the 50s with the street furniture and vehicles. Some are really gash but thereare gems in there
Couple the film with Reelstreets and you get an idea of what some places in london ( and Elsewhere) have and haven't changes in 60 years

[aeropilot]

Simpo Two said:

Well can you add some figures vs Gnat/Hawk to that rather blunt statement?

No, just face to face conversations with several ex-Lightning pilots is good enough for me, including one that flew the F-15 after the Lightning. In its day, and until the arrival of the F-15/F-16 etc there wasn't much that could out turn a Lightning, and if you think a Lightning has a poor turn I hated to think what you consider a F-104 or MiG-21 to be

[Simpo Two]

Well, for a big heavy a/c designed to be fast in a straight line (not a dogfighter) and with highly swept wings I'm surprised. But the context was comparing it with trainers, not F15s. I'd expect the former to turn tighter, just as a Tiger Moth would out-turn a Spitfire.

Would nine Lightnings be able to give the same performance as the current Red Arrows given modern elfnsafety limitations?

[Eric Mc]

Yes of course - as long as they flew within the parameters set for the display and the type of aircraft. Have a look at footage from Farnborough Airshows of 1962 and 1964 and you will see some Lightning formation displays.

As I said, the Thunderbirds flew F-4 Phantoms for a few years (as did the Blue Angels).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzMNx3lHFOU

[Simpo Two]

I'm just thinking that the display box would have to be bigger, and so cross main roads etc...

[Eric Mc]

Even the Red Arrows in their Hawks have problems now. I expect soon the only aerobatic formation teams left will be flying Extra 350s.

[Simpo Two]

Well that was my point!

[Eric Mc]

Yes - but nothing inherently wrong with the Lightnings as a display aircraft. Restrictions affect all fast jet teams these days, no matter what they use.

[Ayahuasca]

When I were a nipper I saw the Thunderbirds display with Phantoms in Central America. Not the most aerobatic, but very, very impressive.

In my view, you don’t need a military display team to do fancy manoeuvring, just get the aircraft close together and low, and make some noise.