Racing on the public highway
Discussion
Question for the BiB - what is the definition of racing on the public highway in the eyes of the law and what proof would be required for a prosecution?
Reason being that a friend and I were out for a drive the other day in our respective cars and after driving past a police bike in the other direction we were stopped a few miles up the road. We were then given quite a dressing down about racing on the public highway and threatened with a 12 month ban.
Bearing in mind that this guy hadn't seen us drive at all, and the guy on the bike had seen us for approx 4 seconds going the other way, when we were travelling within the speed limit. The officer told us that we did not have to be speeding to be deemed racing on the highway and seemed to indicate that because we admitted to knowing each other, he had sufficient grounds to report us for racing. After looking appropriately concerned and grateful when he let us on our way, I am just looking for clarification on this subject, as it seems that it could have implications for most PH'ers who enjoy drives out with fellow enthusiasts.
Just to add, the reason the police were on the road was because there had been a fatality up the road with a biker being killed. Given this background, I can fully understand why the Police would wish to have a word with the drivers of two porsche's out on a run, this I have no problem with. It just seems a bit worrying if what he said was correct, in that we could be prosecuted for racing on a public highway with seeming no other evidence than that of an officer who had seen us for only a few seconds when travelling within the limit and the fact that we knew each other. We hadn't been overtaking each other at all or been driving like nutters, just going out for a Sunday afternoon run the same as all other PHers do.
Reason being that a friend and I were out for a drive the other day in our respective cars and after driving past a police bike in the other direction we were stopped a few miles up the road. We were then given quite a dressing down about racing on the public highway and threatened with a 12 month ban.
Bearing in mind that this guy hadn't seen us drive at all, and the guy on the bike had seen us for approx 4 seconds going the other way, when we were travelling within the speed limit. The officer told us that we did not have to be speeding to be deemed racing on the highway and seemed to indicate that because we admitted to knowing each other, he had sufficient grounds to report us for racing. After looking appropriately concerned and grateful when he let us on our way, I am just looking for clarification on this subject, as it seems that it could have implications for most PH'ers who enjoy drives out with fellow enthusiasts.
Just to add, the reason the police were on the road was because there had been a fatality up the road with a biker being killed. Given this background, I can fully understand why the Police would wish to have a word with the drivers of two porsche's out on a run, this I have no problem with. It just seems a bit worrying if what he said was correct, in that we could be prosecuted for racing on a public highway with seeming no other evidence than that of an officer who had seen us for only a few seconds when travelling within the limit and the fact that we knew each other. We hadn't been overtaking each other at all or been driving like nutters, just going out for a Sunday afternoon run the same as all other PHers do.
Adom said:
Question for the BiB - what is the definition of racing on the public highway in the eyes of the law and what proof would be required for a prosecution?
What in your mind constitues a race? (forget about cars in that mind picture!)
Have you got a picture?
Two vehicles can race!
Adom said:
Reason being that a friend and I were out for a drive the other day in our respective cars and after driving past a police bike in the other direction we were stopped a few miles up the road. We were then given quite a dressing down about racing on the public highway and threatened with a 12 month ban.
Your driving attracted attention. As there were two of you, then that could have been construed by the officer in the same way I posed the question to you.
'Spirited driving'
as is often mentioned on here involving two drivers could be construed by a Bib and a court as a race! Adom said:
Bearing in mind that this guy hadn't seen us drive at all, and the guy on the bike had seen us for approx 4 seconds going the other way, when we were travelling within the speed limit.
Do you remember this?
Adom from post 'bugger' said:
Ten seconds lapse in concentration is all it takes to get done by one of these little b**tards, all my good work (35k pa with lots in unfamiliar towns/cities), wiped out in an instant. I am naturally seething with myself for letting it happen, but the more I think about it,
4 seconds is all it takes to gain an opinion! Longer will ultimately give better evidence for a court to convict you on!
Adom said:
The officer told us that we did not have to be speeding to be deemed racing on the highway and seemed to indicate that because we admitted to knowing each other, he had sufficient grounds to report us for racing.
he was correct in telling you that. The fact you know each other is a bonus. It is not necessary for you to know someone to race with them. Adom said:
After looking appropriately concerned and grateful when he let us on our way, I am just looking for clarification on this subject, as it seems that it could have implications for most PH'ers who enjoy drives out with fellow enthusiasts.
It certainly could. Police driving courses deliberately stagger deployment from the base in the morning and the instructors choose different routes to the RV points for lunch and return to base to avoid this very situation happening!
Adom said:
Just to add, the reason the police were on the road was because there had been a fatality up the road with a biker being killed. Given this background, I can fully understand why the Police would wish to have a word with the drivers of two porsche's out on a run, this I have no problem with. It just seems a bit worrying if what he said was correct, in that we could be prosecuted for racing on a public highway with seeming no other evidence than that of an officer who had seen us for only a few seconds when travelling within the limit and the fact that we knew each other.
If there had been two of them, you may have been in a slightly more difficult position than you are now!
The fact he was on his own and saw what he did which gave him the impetus to turn around and go after you, may have been enough for him to report you anyway.
Being reported for this offence will give you endless hours of stress wondering about the outcome, even if it was never going anywhere in the first place. There is always a time when it very well might, particularly as you have stated there was a fatal accident on that stretch of road recently and they were probably there because of that! That would have made interesting background for the magistrates in the evidence put before them should you have been reported and summonsed!
Adom said:
We hadn't been overtaking each other at all or been driving like nutters, just going out for a Sunday afternoon run the same as all other PHers do.
You don't need to overtake each other to be considered racing. You just bneed to give the impression that you might be trying to do so!
Spirited driving together on a sunday?
No hint of matching your cars or tallents?
Were you wearing your ratcatcher flat cap for your Sunday bimble through the countryside?
I was not there so I cannot really comment. You know what you did. Be honest with yourself for once!
If you were driving in a manner that made a Bib 'Jaffa' turn around and go after you, then there wqas something far from the pale he perceived!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 28th June 12:38
Since a charge of "Racing on the Public Highway" is, potentially, very serious, the onus of proof would most definately be with the CPS and a robust defence, or the indication to the CPS of a robust defence, would make them think twice about proceeding without some very strong 3rd party corroborating evidence. By the way, I got this from a Police Inspector buddy and didn't just make it up.
The attitude should probably have been - 'caution me and present the evident in court where you an answer my barrister's questions'.
The question is, would the officers commit perjury in order to make their point, remembering that you can get prison time for perjury?
The attitude should probably have been - 'caution me and present the evident in court where you an answer my barrister's questions'.
The question is, would the officers commit perjury in order to make their point, remembering that you can get prison time for perjury?
I often go for spirited drives with friends and fellow Tiger owners. To a police officer it could look like we're racing, but we're not! We simply choose some b-roads and go driving with no particular destination or time frame in mind.
Are you saying that if two (or more) sports cars are "making progress" in a convoy (i.e. one behind the other), that can be construed as racing? What about if one of us was to over-take the other?
To me a race is where you have to get to a set place either within a certain time frame, or before another driver gets there.
>> Edited by KITT on Tuesday 28th June 13:32
Are you saying that if two (or more) sports cars are "making progress" in a convoy (i.e. one behind the other), that can be construed as racing? What about if one of us was to over-take the other?
To me a race is where you have to get to a set place either within a certain time frame, or before another driver gets there.
>> Edited by KITT on Tuesday 28th June 13:32
KITT said:
I often go for spirited drives with friends and fellow Tiger owners. To a police officer it could look like we're racing, but we're not! We simply choose some b-roads and go driving with no particular destination or time frame in mind.
I would suggest you don't!
Not 'spirited'
anyway! KITT said:
Are you saying that if two (or more) sports cars are "making progress" in a convoy (i.e. one behind the other), that can be construed as racing? What about if one of us was to over-take the other?
KITT said:
To me a race is where you have to get to a set place either within a certain time frame, or before another driver gets there.
Or an element of competition without any of those features you have mentioned
gone on another rant again. Racing is two or more vehicles at speed attempting to overtake each other with the leader attempting to stop the follower. This sounds like a Convoy. I.E. gone, two similar vehicles following each other and going to the same place. Hell under gone's definition a simple "overtake" could be construed as "racing".
Einion Yrth said:
gone, from adom's post I gain the impression that the viewer and the stopper were two different individuals, would this colour your post differently, since to me it seemed a tad on the accusatory side?
No.
lets look at the bones of it!
1. Road subject to recent FATAC
2. Road subject to Police interest due to above
3. 2 X 'spirited' Porsches on that road.
4. Information passed over a radio by a police witness placed there because of 1 and 2 above to another bib close by.
Possibility of big trouble! especially if both bib manage to get some evidnce of the fact that there was an element of competition even if it was only for 4 seconds!
Cooperman said:
Since a charge of "Racing on the Public Highway" is, potentially, very serious, the onus of proof would most definately be with the CPS
The consequences of any road traffic offence attracting points and a ban are potentially serious!
The onus of proof in most cases is on the prosecution whatever they are!
cooperman said:
and a robust defence, or the indication to the CPS of a robust defence, would make them think twice about proceeding without some very strong 3rd party corroborating evidence.
Possibly. BUT are you aware of the CPS policy on domestic assault?
Even if one party withdraws a complaint because they have 'patched things up', CPS are still prosecuting, especially if it is not the first time Police are called. Even Common assault is being charged!
If a road is subject to a problem involving recent Fatality, that may sway CPS to give it a go!
cooperman said:
By the way, I got this from a Police Inspector buddy and didn't just make it up.
He is not wrong essentially. It would normally req2uire a good deal of corroboration BUT neither you nor I were there in this case and we only have the above account to judge this on
cooperman said:
The attitude should probably have been - 'caution me and present the evident in court where you an answer my barrister's questions'.
If I meet this 'clever' approach by 'spirited'
drivers, then the opportunity is not missed and I will comply with their suggestion! No skin off my nose as I am paid to attend court
Much worry for the accused driver who then has to employ an expensive barrister and attend court in their own time! All in all a win win situation for bib
'Clever' answers attract obvious solutions!
"Fine, lets give it a whirl then
." cooperman said:
The question is, would the officers commit perjury in order to make their point, remembering that you can get prison time for perjury?
You seem to under a bit of a misaprehension that Police regularly perjure themselves in court!
Why?
I don't know many officers who would be willing to commit perjury just to secure a conviction on a case like this or in fact any case. The mere fact the defendant is there having to account for their actions is enough! A conviction is a bonus.
Expensive barristers are not a knee trembling experience for an experience bib (unless they happen to be fit young and gorgeous
depending on which way you swing). Most Barristers I have come across who get too big for their boots in a court room usually come out of it with some egg on their face
.telecat said:
gone on another rant again. Racing is two or more vehicles at speed attempting to overtake each other with the leader attempting to stop the follower. This sounds like a Convoy. I.E. gone, two similar vehicles following each other and going to the same place. Hell under gone's definition a simple "overtake" could be construed as "racing".
That post was not a rant. It was merely an explanation about how you can get yourself into trouble or stay out of it.
If you chose to ignore advice thats fine. When you come unstuck why should I or anyone else care.
This board is about advice. You can take it or leave it. Just because you have an issue with opinion, especially if it is an opinion that disagrees with your own and the fact it comes from Bib, why post antagonist stuff like that above.
I care not whether Adom continues to drive in a 'spirited'
manner with his friend. If he reads my post he will decide if it is worth the effort. If he decides to continue on 'spirited' driving
with his friend, then he may have to employ an expensive legal expert to help him out of the brown stuff. Your opinion of racing is immaterial to a prosecution. It may be material to your individual defence should you end up in a position where you need one.
Is it not better to avoid the situation and the worry in the first instance. Prevention is however much better than a cure
I care even less about your opinion on my posts
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 28th June 14:20
gone said:He didn't even say "spirited"!
gone, from adom's post I gain the impression that the viewer and the stopper were two different individuals, would this colour your post differently, since to me it seemed a tad on the accusatory side?
No.
lets look at the bones of it!
1. Road subject to recent FATAC
2. Road subject to Police interest due to above
3. 2 X 'spirited' Porsches on that road.
4. Information passed over a radio by a police witness placed there because of 1 and 2 above to another bib close by.
Possibility of big trouble! especially if both bib manage to get some evidnce of the fact that there was an element of competition even if it was only for 4 seconds!
Your comments about barristers are as silly as you think some people's comments about the Police.
I'd like to suggest that what could have happened is that BiB no1 saw the 2x Porkers and radioed back to BiB no2 to ask for an eye to be kept out for said Porkers.
BiB no2 pulls over these Porkers for chat - because there is no evidence to charge them with racing he has a quiet word, which most of us on PH would agree is normally a sensible thing to do.
No harm done, but BiB has sucessfully transmitted his knowledge of the FATAC to the 2 Porkers - who now drive a little more sensibly then they were...
End of story - no one looks like a wally
BiB no2 pulls over these Porkers for chat - because there is no evidence to charge them with racing he has a quiet word, which most of us on PH would agree is normally a sensible thing to do.
No harm done, but BiB has sucessfully transmitted his knowledge of the FATAC to the 2 Porkers - who now drive a little more sensibly then they were...
End of story - no one looks like a wally
gone said:
Adom said:
We hadn't been overtaking each other at all or been driving like nutters, just going out for a Sunday afternoon run the same as all other PHers do.
You don't need to overtake each other to be considered racing. You just bneed to give the impression that you might be trying to do so!
Spirited driving together on a sunday?
No hint of matching your cars or tallents?
er...No, not a hint. Can you understand this? Is it inconceivable to you that two drivers can go for a drive (yes, on a Sunday - although why this day has any relevance other than the fact that it is the day we don't have to go to work, I don't know, perhaps you can enlighten me) without a hint of 'matching cars or talents?'
gone said:
Were you wearing your ratcatcher flat cap for your Sunday bimble through the countryside?
I was not there so I cannot really comment. You know what you did. Be honest with yourself for once!
If you were driving in a manner that made a Bib 'Jaffa' turn around and go after you, then there wqas something far from the pale he perceived!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 28th June 12:38
You clearly don't know me so why do you presume to tell me that I am regularly dishonest with myself. I find this particularly insulting and patronsising.
The officer on the bike did not turn around, he simply got on the radio to his chum up the road who then stopped us. As I said in my post, given he had just left the scene of a fatal RTA I don't believe it would have taken much at all for him to get on his radio, in fact probably just seeing two Porsches together would be enough. Like I said, I have no problem with being stopped and warned that there had been a fatal RTA and therefore remember to be careful, my concern was that two cars being driven together could apparently so easily have been determined to be 'racing', with each driver receiving a severe ban.
Zod said:
He didn't even say "spirited"!
Your comments about barristers are as silly as you think some people's comments about the Police.
I know he didn't but you are not telling me that 2 X Porsches that happen to be driving along on a normal Sunday outing and attract the attention of 2 Police Officers who instigate a stop were not in some way pushing the envelope?
I take it you are a barrister?
I have only ever met a couple in court and that includes Crown Court who were worth the money!
Most I have met were at best average and on occasions were dreadful!
The last time I was there, the 'clever barrister' was unable to understand a simple answer I gave about the state of drunkeness of his client i.e. I was unable to give an opinion because my interaction with his client was not enough for me to form an opinion. This was obviously crucial to his line of defence!
The Judge ended up telling him off using the words "I am surprised by a man of your experience continuing with this line. That question is tantamount to asking when did you stop beating your wife. The officer has given a credible answer and explanation. Move on"!
Another clever barrister took photos of a road location 8 months after the event when Winter had expunged the vegetation from the verges and hedges and he had positioned himself in the best possible place to get the view right for his defence. Having looked at the photo's I told the judge that if that had been a drivers view of the road, he would have already been in the hedge to get it!
Another asked a colleague about his opinion on speeding cars. He asked him how long he had been a traffic police officer and estimating speeds. He asked him how much experience he had of driving different vehicles. He was told 15 years and lots of different performance vehicles. The barrister then threw his pen across the court room and asked the officer to give an opinion of how fast it was going. My colleagues reply was "I don't know I have never driven a pen!".
I can give lots more examples of 'clever barristers'
gone said:
Possibility of big trouble! especially if both bib manage to get some evidnce of the fact that there was an element of competition even if it was only for 4 seconds!
This is what I cannot agree with. There was not even a hint of an element of competition. Do you accept this or are you unable to comprehend that this might be the case?
Adom said:
er...No, not a hint. Can you understand this? Is it inconceivable to you that two drivers can go for a drive (yes, on a Sunday - although why this day has any relevance other than the fact that it is the day we don't have to go to work, I don't know, perhaps you can enlighten me) without a hint of 'matching cars or talents?'
NO! but I am a realist
Note at the bottom of the post I did say I was not there to mmake a specific judgement
gone said:
Were you wearing your ratcatcher flat cap for your Sunday bimble through the countryside?
I was not there so I cannot really comment. You know what you did. Be honest with yourself for once!
If you were driving in a manner that made a Bib 'Jaffa' turn around and go after you, then there wqas something far from the pale he perceived!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 28th June 12:38
Adom said:
You clearly don't know me so why do you presume to tell me that I am regularly dishonest with myself. I find this particularly insulting and patronsising.
Adom said:
The officer on the bike did not turn around, he simply got on the radio to his chum up the road who then stopped us. As I said in my post, given he had just left the scene of a fatal RTA I don't believe it would have taken much at all for him to get on his radio, in fact probably just seeing two Porsches together would be enough.
Really
Nothing else! Adom said:
..... my concern was that two cars being driven together could apparently so easily have been determined to be 'racing', with each driver receiving a severe ban.
A severe ban! Not there and then. You know that as well. Your concerns should be tuned to the fact you now know that two cars travelling together in the wrong circumstances may well attract the attention of a Bib and a subsequent report for 'racing on the highway' if there is eveidnce to suggest that is what has occurred. If you are unlucky and say the wrong thing that is more likely!
The post was only about advice neither was it judgemental in any way. Just goes to show that you really don't want advice from Bib if it is what you don't want to hear
. >> Edited by gone on Tuesday 28th June 14:49
gone said:Oh please, how tenuous is that assertion?
You don't need to overtake each other to be considered racing. You just bneed to give the impression that you might be trying to do so!
Spirited driving together on a sunday?
No hint of matching your cars or tallents?
The fact that they know each other and are side by side is irrelevant.
Surely anyone with any sense must realise that two obviously fast cars - not accelerating or braking hard or turning corners aggressively and not driving fast (not above the limit) - cannot be deemed to be racing, simply because they can go one hell of a lot faster!
gone said:I'm a solicitor.
He didn't even say "spirited"!
Your comments about barristers are as silly as you think some people's comments about the Police.
I know he didn't but you are not telling me that 2 X Porsches that happen to be driving along on a normal Sunday outing and attract the attention of 2 Police Officers who instigate a stop were not in some way pushing the envelope?
I take it you are a barrister?
I have only ever met a couple in court and that includes Crown Court who were worth the money!
Most I have met were at best average and on occasions were dreadful!
The last time I was there, the 'clever barrister' was unable to understand a simple answer I gave about the state of drunkeness of his client i.e. I was unable to give an opinion because my interaction with his client was not enough for me to form an opinion. This was obviously crucial to his line of defence!
The Judge ended up telling him off using the words "I am surprised by a man of your experience continuing with this line. That question is tantamount to asking when did you stop beating your wife. The officer has given a credible answer and explanation. Move on"!
Another clever barrister took photos of a road location 8 months after the event when Winter had expunged the vegetation from the verges and hedges and he had positioned himself in the best possible place to get the view right for his defence. Having looked at the photo's I told the judge that if that had been a drivers view of the road, he would have already been in the hedge to get it!
Another asked a colleague about his opinion on speeding cars. He asked him how long he had been a traffic police officer and estimating speeds. He asked him how much experience he had of driving different vehicles. He was told 15 years and lots of different performance vehicles. The barrister then threw his pen across the court room and asked the officer to give an opinion of how fast it was going. My colleagues reply was "I don't know I have never driven a pen!".
I can give lots more examples of 'clever barristers'
Plenty of people on here can give examples of "clever" policemen. You have been known to take offence at people giving examples of these individuals. There are idiot lawyers and there are idiot policemen.
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