Could Porsche supply Red Bull?
Discussion
Was having a think about how far Porsche got with their potential F1 PU for 2021, back when the regs were expected to change to make the PU's a bit less complex - that change didn't happen, so what they developed would need some adaptation..
At the time VAG pulled the plug on the programme due to their own issues and changing priorities for the future. I wonder though, could AM entering the sport change that attitude a little? AM are small but in Porsche terms are a relevant rival marque, especially if their F1 attempts are successful. Another factor is that they could now realistically set their sights on producing a PU that would exceed Ferrari's, that would have some value too.
Could RBR throw enough money at Porsche to get them to supply engines to the sport after all? It's a move I'm sure Liberty and the FIA would wholeheartedly support the possibility.
At the time VAG pulled the plug on the programme due to their own issues and changing priorities for the future. I wonder though, could AM entering the sport change that attitude a little? AM are small but in Porsche terms are a relevant rival marque, especially if their F1 attempts are successful. Another factor is that they could now realistically set their sights on producing a PU that would exceed Ferrari's, that would have some value too.
Could RBR throw enough money at Porsche to get them to supply engines to the sport after all? It's a move I'm sure Liberty and the FIA would wholeheartedly support the possibility.
No
It is a massively successful brand, they get all the kudos they need from the support race, why take on Mercedes, Aston are minnows. Plus the board has already rejected the idea. Hybrid technology is going nowhere.
It’s as daft as VAG taking on Ferrari by producing a “Lamborghini badged” engine.
It is a massively successful brand, they get all the kudos they need from the support race, why take on Mercedes, Aston are minnows. Plus the board has already rejected the idea. Hybrid technology is going nowhere.
It’s as daft as VAG taking on Ferrari by producing a “Lamborghini badged” engine.
Edited by rdjohn on Friday 6th November 08:37
rdjohn said:
No
It is a massively successful brand, they get all the kudos they need from the support race, why take on Mercedes, Aston are minnows. Plus the board has already rejected the idea. Hybrid technology is going nowhere.
It’s as daft as VAG taking on Ferrari by producing a “Lamborghini badged” engine.
All sounds like sensible reasoning until we consider the same board did originally sign off on developing the F1 programme and they did subsequently get as far as designing and testing a PU for what was hoped to be the 2021 PU spec change.It is a massively successful brand, they get all the kudos they need from the support race, why take on Mercedes, Aston are minnows. Plus the board has already rejected the idea. Hybrid technology is going nowhere.
It’s as daft as VAG taking on Ferrari by producing a “Lamborghini badged” engine.
Edited by rdjohn on Friday 6th November 08:37
There must be reasons why it appealled and some of those reasons will remain. Other factors and developments since could also be a factor in taking another look at it.
For all we know F1 might be very keen to listen to what Porsche see as the future for F1 power units come the next spec change, more than ever if Porsche could get on board ahead of it. That's more or less how Mercedes were bought in and they benefitted hugely from early involvement in the formulation of the current hybrid PU specs.
What Porsche wanted was for F1 to change their regs to be the same as the WEC rules under which they developed their 919 hybrid system.
The main difference is that F1 use the MGU-K and WEC didn’t, that’s both the expensive and difficult bit that Honda struggled to get right, but also the driver of the ground-breaking efficiency of modern F1 cars.
When F1 announced that they wouldn’t substantially change the engine regs, Porsche decided they didn’t want to invest the time and money necessary to develop an MGU-K, which they say has title relevance to road cars.
The main difference is that F1 use the MGU-K and WEC didn’t, that’s both the expensive and difficult bit that Honda struggled to get right, but also the driver of the ground-breaking efficiency of modern F1 cars.
When F1 announced that they wouldn’t substantially change the engine regs, Porsche decided they didn’t want to invest the time and money necessary to develop an MGU-K, which they say has title relevance to road cars.
Exige77 said:
Also FIA have said they are looking at radically new engines for next change.
2 stroke possibly with exotic bio fuels.
Until the new rules are clarified, there will be no new entrants. Certainly not next year with only a few years left of current engines.
Agree with this..2 stroke possibly with exotic bio fuels.
Until the new rules are clarified, there will be no new entrants. Certainly not next year with only a few years left of current engines.
rev-erend said:
Exige77 said:
Also FIA have said they are looking at radically new engines for next change.
2 stroke possibly with exotic bio fuels.
Until the new rules are clarified, there will be no new entrants. Certainly not next year with only a few years left of current engines.
Agree with this..2 stroke possibly with exotic bio fuels.
Until the new rules are clarified, there will be no new entrants. Certainly not next year with only a few years left of current engines.
TheDeuce said:
Even thought it doesn't tally with recent history of a team deciding to enter the sport ahead of the PU spec change on the basis they could heavily influence that final spec?
The issue is that the current PUs are very complex and expensive, and 2024 and ‘25 are proposed to be freeze years, so anyone coming in now would need to hit the ground running. The recent example you allude to was already a winning engine manufacturer under the old regulations.
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
Even thought it doesn't tally with recent history of a team deciding to enter the sport ahead of the PU spec change on the basis they could heavily influence that final spec?
The issue is that the current PUs are very complex and expensive, and 2024 and ‘25 are proposed to be freeze years, so anyone coming in now would need to hit the ground running. The recent example you allude to was already a winning engine manufacturer under the old regulations.
The time for a new serious manufacturer to look too enter would be around now, in order to have influence on what the 2025 onwards PU's should be. I'm not saying that Porsche/VAG would have sufficient interest in being that new manufacturer... Just that it would make sense for anyone that could be convinced to enter F1 to get their feet under the carpet several years in advance - exactly as Mercedes did. They apparently were involved in PU discussions 7 whole years before the change to hybrid was made. Quite a run up.. One that paid off big time and I'm sure anyone else looking to enter would look at that.
Deesee said:
If you believe the rumours they attempted a build 2/3 years ago..
A Red Bull Bentley, and or a AlphaTauri Lamborgini.. or something along the lines..
I think a Red Bull lambo would be a neater fit. Something nice to continue to beat Ferrari with A Red Bull Bentley, and or a AlphaTauri Lamborgini.. or something along the lines..
They did, the PU exists but then the hoped for spec change for 2021 didn't happen... Their PU was fully in line with the formerly proposed regs, was tested and they were ready to go.
The resultant PU is apparently likely to find its way in to a road hypercar.
TheDeuce said:
Mercedes made a competitive engine ahead of Hybrid. But it was the run up to the spec change to hybrid that allowed them to be involved in that spec, arguably get a head start and also gave them the confidence to invest far more resource in to F1 involvement.
The time for a new serious manufacturer to look too enter would be around now, in order to have influence on what the 2025 onwards PU's should be. I'm not saying that Porsche/VAG would have sufficient interest in being that new manufacturer... Just that it would make sense for anyone that could be convinced to enter F1 to get their feet under the carpet several years in advance - exactly as Mercedes did. They apparently were involved in PU discussions 7 whole years before the change to hybrid was made. Quite a run up.. One that paid off big time and I'm sure anyone else looking to enter would look at that.
Yes, but the issue remains that anyone entering now needs to have a $2bn current-spec F1 Power unit - something that no-one wants to do, having watched how Honda coped with almost unlimited recourses thrown at the project. The time for a new serious manufacturer to look too enter would be around now, in order to have influence on what the 2025 onwards PU's should be. I'm not saying that Porsche/VAG would have sufficient interest in being that new manufacturer... Just that it would make sense for anyone that could be convinced to enter F1 to get their feet under the carpet several years in advance - exactly as Mercedes did. They apparently were involved in PU discussions 7 whole years before the change to hybrid was made. Quite a run up.. One that paid off big time and I'm sure anyone else looking to enter would look at that.
Last time Porsche tried F1, it was an embarrassment.
https://drivetribe.com/p/club-foot-1991-footwork-f...
https://drivetribe.com/p/club-foot-1991-footwork-f...
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Ive got this very funny feeling they will end up with a Merc Unit in 2022..
Toto found that idea even funnier than you when he was asked 
n3il123 said:
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Ive got this very funny feeling they will end up with a Merc Unit in 2022..
Toto found that idea even funnier than you when he was asked 
Porsche have no desire or real level of involvement in F1 in anything like the past 50 or so years, the V12 was disastrous and the turbo engine was rebadged. They use other things to promote their brand and are pulling away from that in the USA due to Covid.
F1 is as far from Porsche as it is from say Rolls Royce. I dont even understand why Aston Martin re involved to be honest. Serves no purpose being in F1 for that brand.
F1 is as far from Porsche as it is from say Rolls Royce. I dont even understand why Aston Martin re involved to be honest. Serves no purpose being in F1 for that brand.
LukeBrown66 said:
Porsche have no desire or real level of involvement in F1 in anything like the past 50 or so years, the V12 was disastrous and the turbo engine was rebadged. They use other things to promote their brand and are pulling away from that in the USA due to Covid.
F1 is as far from Porsche as it is from say Rolls Royce. I dont even understand why Aston Martin re involved to be honest. Serves no purpose being in F1 for that brand.
That's simply not true though. Porsche were on a programme to develop an F1 PU for the anticipated regs. The regs didn't go that way in the end, but from around early 2018 they were talking to the powers that be at F1, discussing the best direction etc. They then went ahead and designed and built an F1 PU to that spec. It exists, they did it. Ploughed god only knows how much in to doing so. They only closed down their F1 development branch late last year..F1 is as far from Porsche as it is from say Rolls Royce. I dont even understand why Aston Martin re involved to be honest. Serves no purpose being in F1 for that brand.
Whatever your view of their suitability based on the history - it doesn't make it true to claim they have no desire to join. They have already proven that on some level, they do - or at least until very recently were intending to.
TheDeuce said:
n3il123 said:
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Ive got this very funny feeling they will end up with a Merc Unit in 2022..
Toto found that idea even funnier than you when he was asked Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff