Paint jobs, masking rear lights.
Discussion
No real point to this thread other than to gather wether I'm out of touch, which is highly likely.
I follow various bodywork, restoration businesses on social media as it's something that interests me for whatever reasons. I've actually come full circle on car body work, now preferring a car to show its age and character through its paintwork, within reason. But that's not say I don't really appreciate the skill and craft of body restorations.
But why are so many body shops these days seemingly happy to mask up a rear light unit, rather than remove it. As far as I'm concerned it's almost always one of the easiest pieces of trim to remove and refit. And allows you the opportunity to give the unit a good clean in and out and make it sparkle.
As far as I'm concerned, if I see a shop has masked a rear light unit to paint the panel. They're no longer on my list of potential body shops. Yet more and more are seemingly not only doing it, yet posting the pics of what I see to be a shortcut on social media.
Discuss... If indeed you care to.
I follow various bodywork, restoration businesses on social media as it's something that interests me for whatever reasons. I've actually come full circle on car body work, now preferring a car to show its age and character through its paintwork, within reason. But that's not say I don't really appreciate the skill and craft of body restorations.
But why are so many body shops these days seemingly happy to mask up a rear light unit, rather than remove it. As far as I'm concerned it's almost always one of the easiest pieces of trim to remove and refit. And allows you the opportunity to give the unit a good clean in and out and make it sparkle.
As far as I'm concerned, if I see a shop has masked a rear light unit to paint the panel. They're no longer on my list of potential body shops. Yet more and more are seemingly not only doing it, yet posting the pics of what I see to be a shortcut on social media.
Discuss... If indeed you care to.
rufusgti said:
As far as I'm concerned, if I see a shop has masked a rear light unit to paint the panel. They're no longer on my list of potential body shops. Yet more and more are seemingly not only doing it, yet posting the pics of what I see to be a shortcut on social media.
Discuss... If indeed you care to.
I am 100% in the same camp. Same as people who attempt to paint around light switches and sockets in buildings. Discuss... If indeed you care to.
That said, I also distrust bodyshops to take light clusters, and especially trim, off the car with breaking it. I strip the car down here at home, then get the bodywork people to take away the carcass and do their thing. They'll then deliver it back to me all pristine so I can reassemble it, and scratch the new paintwork myself.
It could be the generation that have grown to accept the cheap insurance job way of doing things .
Do it frequently enough and it becomes the norm .
I personally would always remove the light and not just because to my mind it's easier but also because their is usually loads of crude behind the lights just waiting to contaminate the paint .
Do it frequently enough and it becomes the norm .
I personally would always remove the light and not just because to my mind it's easier but also because their is usually loads of crude behind the lights just waiting to contaminate the paint .
Yertis said:
bodyshops to take light clusters, and especially trim, off the car with breaking it.
I bet that's the reason. How often do you attempt a straightforward job on a car and it escalates as things crumble and snap around your target area. I bet they don't want that risk, especially on older cars with old, fragile and probably hard to find, parts.grumpy52 said:
It could be the generation that have grown to accept the cheap insurance job way of doing things .
Do it frequently enough and it becomes the norm .
I personally would always remove the light and not just because to my mind it's easier but also because their is usually loads of crude behind the lights just waiting to contaminate the paint .
This...Insurance Companies (the ones seen on TV adverts each night) really push Bodyshops to short cut and many things that should been done 'correctly' are NOT. Taking lights out is the thin end of the wedge i am afraid......Do it frequently enough and it becomes the norm .
I personally would always remove the light and not just because to my mind it's easier but also because their is usually loads of crude behind the lights just waiting to contaminate the paint .
A decent Bodyshop to restore something older should however, always remove trim AND have the expertise to complete this competently....if they cannot do this simple task...move and find another.
This is a basic task!!
Shezbo said:
This...Insurance Companies (the ones seen on TV adverts each night) really push Bodyshops to short cut and many things that should been done 'correctly' are NOT. Taking lights out is the thin end of the wedge i am afraid......
A decent Bodyshop to restore something older should however, always remove trim AND have the expertise to complete this competently....if they cannot do this simple task...move and find another.
This is a basic task!!
I've never heard of this, where do you get your evidence ? A decent Bodyshop to restore something older should however, always remove trim AND have the expertise to complete this competently....if they cannot do this simple task...move and find another.
This is a basic task!!
I would say the opposite is true, many cars are written off because the cost of repairs by a professional shop exceeds the value of the car. The owner then buys the car back from the insurer and has a more "cost efficient" job done. My partners daughter has just done this.
I know several body shops that do insurance work - they submit a quote for the work and they either get the job or not. There's no question of being put under pressure to cut corners.
Regarding removal of rear lights or other trim, you basically get what you pay for. A glass-out top class job costs many thousands of pounds. Some owners don't want to go down this route, neither do some dealers.
GoodOlBoy said:
I know several body shops that do insurance work - they submit a quote for the work and they either get the job or not. There's no question of being put under pressure to cut corners.
.
Erm....read that back......absolutely no pressure at all, apart from if they quote consistently higher than those cutting corners who the insurers are happy to use, they get no work and close down.
Volvolover said:
Erm....read that back......absolutely no pressure at all, apart from if they quote consistently higher than those cutting corners who the insurers are happy to use, they get no work and close down
Approved repairers won't stay approved very long if they cut corners. Competitive quoting is a fundamental of all businesses.
GoodOlBoy said:
Volvolover said:
Erm....read that back......absolutely no pressure at all, apart from if they quote consistently higher than those cutting corners who the insurers are happy to use, they get no work and close down
Approved repairers won't stay approved very long if they cut corners. Competitive quoting is a fundamental of all businesses.
The Insurance Approved Bodyshop's have to 'repair vehicles to a cost' (you could say cutting corners - however, that is perhaps slightly unfair and tarring all with same brush!), for completing work with this 'efficiency' they get rewarded with more work and so the cycle continues....this is why a lot of Bodyshops are going out business.
Cost's rise but Labour Rates and Hours to complete the work do not.
The largest Bodyshop Group (115 Bodyshops UK wide) went bang approx. 6 weeks ago......
Cost's rise but Labour Rates and Hours to complete the work do not.
The largest Bodyshop Group (115 Bodyshops UK wide) went bang approx. 6 weeks ago......
steveo3002 said:
workers are paid bonus ...if they can cut a corner its money in their pocket
So you P&J goes to a Bodyshop like the above? Is that good if you (post repair) have your family in the car and have another bump......
I am not saying you are wrong with your summary in fact you are right - however, it is not a widely advertised fact is it?
Shezbo said:
So you P&J goes to a Bodyshop like the above?
Is that good if you (post repair) have your family in the car and have another bump......
I am not saying you are wrong with your summary in fact you are right - however, it is not a widely advertised fact is it?
lots of workers cut corners if they can , i dont know another trade maybe a builder would do a nicer job if building a home for himself ?Is that good if you (post repair) have your family in the car and have another bump......
I am not saying you are wrong with your summary in fact you are right - however, it is not a widely advertised fact is it?
i was in bodyshops for nearly 30 years...if you can cut a corner you do , insurance jobs dont pay that well , im not saying outright bodges but stuff like the masking up jobs to save 20 mins dismantling
I own a bodyshop, which is primarily for restoration/specialist work, so aren't in any insurance company network or anything, but have done a fair few insurance jobs over the years through existing customers insisting that we do the work.
I can only assume the majority of "insurance" bodyshops must cut a lot of corners to get work and to push it through in the time allowed.
Some insurance companies haven't been a problem to work with. One that springs to mind accepted our first estimate, but requested that we altered our estimate a little so there was less labour time and more material cost to reach the same figure as that would avoid the car having to be written off (no idea how that works, but must be a reason behind it!) Others will try and beat you down on everything. One claimed that they could get the work done by a VW main dealer for £20 per hour, which has got to be nonsense. Another stated that we needed to drop our hourly rate by £10 otherwise it would be put through their own network. Again, this is nonsense as I know the customer wouldn't allow it to be done anywhere else, but we had gone in slightly higher than we needed to as we know that most insurance companies will try to beat you down, so reached a compromise.
Another thing that is common with several of the larger insurance companies is "fixed price repairs" for the bodyshops in their network. One such insurance company works on a fixed price of £1100. That means if a bodyshop has a car come in with barely more than a scratch, which takes a couple of hours to repair, they get paid £1100 for it. On the other hand, if they have a car that is totaled and takes days to repair and requires all new panels, they get paid £1100 for it. The theory behind it is that it will average itself out. However, if you have a car requiring lots of panels ideally and is many hours of work, how many panels are going to get badly bodged up to save on costs?
The staff in these bodyshops are often left frustrated also. I have interviewed people for jobs who worked in places that operate like that. Many of them want out because it's rubbish work, all rush, lots of stress, corners cut which they don't like, the cheapest materials you can buy bonus schemes that rely on everyone else working the processes to be fully pulling their weight on, so they often miss out. It's difficult, however, because they do get paid well, particularly if they do hit their bonus. They get paid rates that they're never likely to get near working in the small, restoration-type places, which is a far more enjoyable job, with quality materials and generally less stress and pressure day-in-day out. I even know of a few larger bodyshops which have vending machine type affairs with the sanding discs etc in, which they have to punch in a code everything they need something so it can be logged what has been used. They also get a bonus for materials saved and panels repaired rather than replaced.
Now I know of many excellent people and excellent workshops within the bodyshop world, so they're not all like the above, but it is increasingly more common nowadays with pressure on cost-cutting.
I wouldn't say there is pressure to cut corners, but there is pressure on budgets, so naturally many will look to cut corners to achieve this.
I can only assume the majority of "insurance" bodyshops must cut a lot of corners to get work and to push it through in the time allowed.
Some insurance companies haven't been a problem to work with. One that springs to mind accepted our first estimate, but requested that we altered our estimate a little so there was less labour time and more material cost to reach the same figure as that would avoid the car having to be written off (no idea how that works, but must be a reason behind it!) Others will try and beat you down on everything. One claimed that they could get the work done by a VW main dealer for £20 per hour, which has got to be nonsense. Another stated that we needed to drop our hourly rate by £10 otherwise it would be put through their own network. Again, this is nonsense as I know the customer wouldn't allow it to be done anywhere else, but we had gone in slightly higher than we needed to as we know that most insurance companies will try to beat you down, so reached a compromise.
Another thing that is common with several of the larger insurance companies is "fixed price repairs" for the bodyshops in their network. One such insurance company works on a fixed price of £1100. That means if a bodyshop has a car come in with barely more than a scratch, which takes a couple of hours to repair, they get paid £1100 for it. On the other hand, if they have a car that is totaled and takes days to repair and requires all new panels, they get paid £1100 for it. The theory behind it is that it will average itself out. However, if you have a car requiring lots of panels ideally and is many hours of work, how many panels are going to get badly bodged up to save on costs?
The staff in these bodyshops are often left frustrated also. I have interviewed people for jobs who worked in places that operate like that. Many of them want out because it's rubbish work, all rush, lots of stress, corners cut which they don't like, the cheapest materials you can buy bonus schemes that rely on everyone else working the processes to be fully pulling their weight on, so they often miss out. It's difficult, however, because they do get paid well, particularly if they do hit their bonus. They get paid rates that they're never likely to get near working in the small, restoration-type places, which is a far more enjoyable job, with quality materials and generally less stress and pressure day-in-day out. I even know of a few larger bodyshops which have vending machine type affairs with the sanding discs etc in, which they have to punch in a code everything they need something so it can be logged what has been used. They also get a bonus for materials saved and panels repaired rather than replaced.
Now I know of many excellent people and excellent workshops within the bodyshop world, so they're not all like the above, but it is increasingly more common nowadays with pressure on cost-cutting.
I wouldn't say there is pressure to cut corners, but there is pressure on budgets, so naturally many will look to cut corners to achieve this.
steveo3002 said:
lots of workers cut corners if they can , i dont know another trade maybe a builder would do a nicer job if building a home for himself ?
i was in bodyshops for nearly 30 years...if you can cut a corner you do , insurance jobs dont pay that well , im not saying outright bodges but stuff like the masking up jobs to save 20 mins dismantling
Good Bodyshop's have changed from the cutting corners stance you mention, these days - thank goodness.i was in bodyshops for nearly 30 years...if you can cut a corner you do , insurance jobs dont pay that well , im not saying outright bodges but stuff like the masking up jobs to save 20 mins dismantling
Safety, correct repairs, genuine parts and trained Tech's are the way forward i.e. a vehicle repaired for the customer back to VM and Euro ENCAP standards.
(Steve: I must admit you should never have been cutting corners and brag about it, regardless of how long ago it was!!)
Shezbo said:
The Insurance Approved Bodyshop's have to 'repair vehicles to a cost' (you could say cutting corners - however, that is perhaps slightly unfair and tarring all with same brush!), for completing work with this 'efficiency' they get rewarded with more work and so the cycle continues....this is why a lot of Bodyshops are going out business.
Cost's rise but Labour Rates and Hours to complete the work do not.
The largest Bodyshop Group (115 Bodyshops UK wide) went bang approx. 6 weeks ago......
Which one??Cost's rise but Labour Rates and Hours to complete the work do not.
The largest Bodyshop Group (115 Bodyshops UK wide) went bang approx. 6 weeks ago......
I agree with your comments
I started my career in a bodyshop so I have a good insight into what goes on.
Finally there is some sense in this thread that insurance work isn't a licence to print money which people misconceive, it is actually lowly paid, hours for the repair are tight in which carry out the necessary work, hardly any mark-up on parts purchases, oh and give every customer a 'free' loan car.
Anyway I would never allow my car to go to one of the approved repairers big bodyshops, the work is often poor, no attention to detail and an attitude of it'll do. To the vast majority of punters that standard is acceptable, if it's comes out of the door straight and its shiny that's all that a lot of people see.
As a PHer and still in the motor trade I like to think I know a lot better and have a higher standard than the average man on the street, as do a lot of people on this forum.
I suppose the point is you get what you pay for and in this case an insurance repair is a usually a 'cheap' job and if you want things doing 100% then you've got to pay decent money elsewhere for the corners not to be cut.
Finally there is some sense in this thread that insurance work isn't a licence to print money which people misconceive, it is actually lowly paid, hours for the repair are tight in which carry out the necessary work, hardly any mark-up on parts purchases, oh and give every customer a 'free' loan car.
Anyway I would never allow my car to go to one of the approved repairers big bodyshops, the work is often poor, no attention to detail and an attitude of it'll do. To the vast majority of punters that standard is acceptable, if it's comes out of the door straight and its shiny that's all that a lot of people see.
As a PHer and still in the motor trade I like to think I know a lot better and have a higher standard than the average man on the street, as do a lot of people on this forum.
I suppose the point is you get what you pay for and in this case an insurance repair is a usually a 'cheap' job and if you want things doing 100% then you've got to pay decent money elsewhere for the corners not to be cut.
d. It's good to see so many PHers that are in the trade debunking the image of Insurance approved and main dealer body shops .
The days of the insurance approved body shop being the best in the area are long gone , most these days are the places that are prepared to do the work for the pittance that the insurance companies pay . Fewer and fewer main dealers are prepared to do bodywork in house as the costs and profits no longer have the appeal.
The days of the insurance approved body shop being the best in the area are long gone , most these days are the places that are prepared to do the work for the pittance that the insurance companies pay . Fewer and fewer main dealers are prepared to do bodywork in house as the costs and profits no longer have the appeal.
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