Is it possible to 'admire' an evil man/deed?

[irocfan]

After a few things I've stumbled over both on here and Facebook I wondered if it is possible to separate a brave person who is evil or fighting on behalf of evil?

I guess for me there are some obvious examples:

Hans Ulrich Rudel
Joachim Peiper
Otto Skorzeny
Kurt Student
Many members of the SS in various theatres of war

All brave - but is it possible to admire it? Were they actually brave or just fanatical?

Edited by irocfan on Saturday 21st November 23:16

[Johnnytheboy]

The term "evil" is a bit of a tricky one to pin down.

Most people think they have good on their side, or if not good then at least right.

Personified by:

[otolith]

It is possible to admire an aspect of a person without admiring the person.

[bluezedd]

Israel definitely thinks its possible to admire specific nazis who have made good decisions (although im not sure I'd describe them as evil if they chose to do good while wearing a uniform or perhaps being in a situation where they had no choice).

There has been some misjudgements too such as the banning of goldfinger due to Gert Frobe being a member of the nazi party. It was unbanned when some people confirmed he saved their lives by hiding them in a basement. He also left before ww2.

[dudleybloke]

Rommel is one who seems to be held in high regard by most.

Edited by dudleybloke on Sunday 22 November 00:46

[Overall D]

One could be clever and brave and honest but have totally different values. You could admire them for the former and despise for the latter.

[wisbech]

Well, in legend you have Bhishma, who fights for evil out of duty, and is one of the most admired characters in the Mahabharata.

[whitesocks]

I used to work with a bloke who was adamant that 'Hitler did no wrong' and was in his words 'The most misunderstood person of the 20th century'

He once sent me a link to a documentary called 'The greatest Story Never Told' which I watched for five or so minutes before deciding that my workmate is a fruit loop.

[kambites]

Overall D said:

One could be clever and brave and honest but have totally different values. You could admire them for the former and despise for the latter.

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

[mike74]

kambites said:

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

I recall reading that Hindley and Brady would track down anyone in their locality who was charged with animal cruelty to harass and abuse them, quite remarkable how such evil sadists can still have some compassion and morality in their soul.

[phope]

kambites said:

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

He was a dog lover by all accounts.

[Mr Whippy]

mike74 said:

kambites said:

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

I recall reading that Hindley and Brady would track down anyone in their locality who was charged with animal cruelty to harass and abuse them, quite remarkable how such evil sadists can still have some compassion and morality in their soul.

Or it let them harass and abuse others with less guilt.

[98elise]

kambites said:

Overall D said:

One could be clever and brave and honest but have totally different values. You could admire them for the former and despise for the latter.

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

Hitler definitely had positive traits if you take them in isolation. For example he was a pretty good speaker, if you ignore the ideology.

[irocfan]

kambites said:

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

Well he was a vegetarian and liked dogs....

[Teddy Lop]

No, its called having a nuanced and sophisticated worldview.

Much of the problem today (amplified by social media) is people, often otherwise intelligent and reasoned individuals, taking a binary stance on an issue or person where it/they, and every single thing about them has to be good or bad.

[Roofless Toothless]

For most of my life I have been fascinated by the life and music of Richard Wagner. I have a library of over 200 books about the man and his operas.

If you ever want a lesson in how to separate the work from the personality that created them, this is a pretty good place to start. Even some of the operas’ themes (not musical ones) are pretty distasteful when analysed in certain ways.

Quite a few books are specifically about Wagner’s role in the rise of antisemitism and the birth of the Nazi party. The contortions some of the authors go through trying to excuse the man reveal deep uncertainties even among the experts. In fact, the very literature on Wagner has become an interesting study in its own right.

At the end of the day, I have come to feel that just as Wagner was at the centre of the development of music, theatre, philosophy, and politics in the 19th century, he was also representative of all that is good and bad in humanity, all at the same time.

[Chubbyross]

otolith said:

It is possible to admire an aspect of a person without admiring the person.

Indeed. Hitler managed to create an empire in a very short space of time, which clearly take some doing. However, how he did it and the atrocities he committed far, far outweigh any of his positive attributes.

[Teddy Lop]

Chubbyross said:

otolith said:

It is possible to admire an aspect of a person without admiring the person.

Indeed. Hitler managed to create an empire in a very short space of time, which clearly take some doing. However, how he did it and the atrocities he committed far, far outweigh any of his positive attributes.

you could also make a case he halted the westward march of communism. That's an intersting one to ponder. But yeah, what the Nazis achieved was incredible when you think about it - I think most people need to diminish it because of the atrocities.

[ntiz]

Interesting discussion

If a conscripted German soldier saves another 4 conscripted soldiers from death under fire from the Allies. Is he a hero? The act no doubt is, but is it ruined because fighting for the Nazi’s?

Personally I don’t think so. Most people fighting in the war weren’t die hard Jew killing Nazi’s most were just normal people conscripted to fight for there country.

I remember going to the war graves on a school trip to Northern France. My brilliant teacher made the point of taking us to the German graves as well to make the point that the loss of life on both sides was horrific. Neither side really wins no one in those graves really deserved it. Most just normal people killed for not a lot of reason really.

[P5BNij]

mike74 said:

kambites said:

Even the most reprehensible of people generally have at least some positive qualities. It always struck me as odd that it's often viewed as unacceptable to acknowledge them.

Even Hitler presumably had positive traits.

I recall reading that Hindley and Brady would track down anyone in their locality who was charged with animal cruelty to harass and abuse them, quite remarkable how such evil sadists can still have some compassion and morality in their soul.

My dad's older brother was the arresting officer when Hindley was nicked a few days after Brady, I was told that she was quite charming in person when being charged. I'd imagine it was only skin deep though.