I think they can afford the Honda IP...!
Discussion
Dividends paid today re Redbull, I didn’t realize DIetrich was quite as involved as this!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/23/r...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/23/r...
550m.... You'd need twice that to develop a competitive F1 PU ground up, so why would Honda sell their efforts for half price and also probably give away a fair few secrets that might be considered more valuable than the PU itself?
Honda may license RB to produce the current PU via a third party that runs the UK plant. But I very much doubt they'll release their design work etc. Drawing to allow fabrication of additional units sure, but not the design work behind them. From that half blindfolded position the new guys would take years to get their head around exactly how/why aspects of the current design works, let alone improving it.
Frankly RB taking over production of the existing Honda PU only works if the FIA agree to freezing PU development. Which they won't, because Ferrari want the exact opposite - and of course, can veto it even if the FIA do back RB on this one.
Honda may license RB to produce the current PU via a third party that runs the UK plant. But I very much doubt they'll release their design work etc. Drawing to allow fabrication of additional units sure, but not the design work behind them. From that half blindfolded position the new guys would take years to get their head around exactly how/why aspects of the current design works, let alone improving it.
Frankly RB taking over production of the existing Honda PU only works if the FIA agree to freezing PU development. Which they won't, because Ferrari want the exact opposite - and of course, can veto it even if the FIA do back RB on this one.
wibble cb said:
Point being it’s a very cash generative business, so they could very well fund an engine(it’s not like they need to pay the whole tab up front).
Dietrich is worth an estimated 27bn USD, that a lot of sugar water.
Sure, the man himself could afford it. As could the company no doubt. The F1 programme isn't currently funded to that extent though - it would take a very large investment and realistically it's unlikely there will be enough years to get their own PU fully up to speed and competitive before the regs change again.Dietrich is worth an estimated 27bn USD, that a lot of sugar water.
Very different to the start of the hybrid spec era when those investing had a roadmap of at least 7 years of the spec ahead of them, and years in advance to get people thinking about what the best approach could be.
What they can do for far less investment is take the Honda PU as it is, and run off their own copies of it. There wouldn't be any evolution of the design though, hence them only wanting to go that route if the other manufacturers are forced to stop evolving their PU's.
I'm not convinced red bull will find a solution that they're going to be entirely happy about. This is a very big problem for them.
Better for Honda to sell all the IP to the VAG group or another car giant - maybe they can also do a collaborative effort with them too for road car technology; shares resources = less financial outlay and a better product.
The VAG group would also have the technical abilities and resources to really understand and get on top of these power units relatively quickly.
The VAG group would also have the technical abilities and resources to really understand and get on top of these power units relatively quickly.
Honda aren't going to sell their IP, specifically the design history and theory of the PU development to anyone. That's simply not the way they work. If they ain't supplying it themselves and in control of it, that's the end of it. So far as I can work out the only contrary evidence of that stance changing is that there is apparently an option for RB to take the current PU design and simply replicate it - which is probably an option they always had if Honda pulled out ahead of the spec changing.
So if RB get the PU update freeze (very unlikely) they want, then it makes perfect sense to continue to manufacture of the current Honda PU themselves, badged as 'whatever' instead of Honda. If they don't get the freeze, they're stuffed and need to either have an awkward phone call with Cyril or try and convince someone else to become an F1 PU manufacturer at massive cost with only a few years of the spec remaining before they have to start from scratch again.
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
So if RB get the PU update freeze (very unlikely) they want, then it makes perfect sense to continue to manufacture of the current Honda PU themselves, badged as 'whatever' instead of Honda. If they don't get the freeze, they're stuffed and need to either have an awkward phone call with Cyril or try and convince someone else to become an F1 PU manufacturer at massive cost with only a few years of the spec remaining before they have to start from scratch again.
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers.thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers.
- there is always an opportunity to reflect on a statement and then revise it...Although I do happen to think Toto would rather not supply RB, and that Renault are the only remotely likely option. Once they've finished pestering everyone over their PU freeze idea that is, which oddly enough, no one else wants.
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers. - there is always an opportunity to reflect on a statement and then revise it...Although I do happen to think Toto would rather not supply RB, and that Renault are the only remotely likely option. Once they've finished pestering everyone over their PU freeze idea that is, which oddly enough, no one else wants.
Mercedes HPP are able to supply up to 4 teams only under rulings.
They already meet this limit for the long term at present, with no foreseeable changes to this (Merc AMG, Aston Martin, McLaren & Williams all with contracts beyond 2022); therefore they do not knowingly have the capacity or ability to supply Red Bull and/or Alpha Tauri from that point
Totos comments are accurate, it presently has nothing to do with Toto or Mercedes 'wanting' to supply them or not.
djgritt said:
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers. - there is always an opportunity to reflect on a statement and then revise it...Although I do happen to think Toto would rather not supply RB, and that Renault are the only remotely likely option. Once they've finished pestering everyone over their PU freeze idea that is, which oddly enough, no one else wants.
Mercedes HPP are able to supply up to 4 teams only under rulings.
They already meet this limit for the long term at present, with no foreseeable changes to this (Merc AMG, Aston Martin, McLaren & Williams all with contracts beyond 2022); therefore they do not knowingly have the capacity or ability to supply Red Bull and/or Alpha Tauri from that point
Totos comments are accurate, it presently has nothing to do with Toto or Mercedes 'wanting' to supply them or not.
In any case - if not, that's the sort of rule that can quickly be re-written if no one objects, and no reason why anyone should if Renault and Ferrari don't care to supply RB themselves. It would still be more likely than RB getting their PU dev freeze...
Overall as I have said, by far the most likely has to be to begrudgingly follow the existing rules as intended and go back to Renault..
TheDeuce said:
djgritt said:
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers. - there is always an opportunity to reflect on a statement and then revise it...Although I do happen to think Toto would rather not supply RB, and that Renault are the only remotely likely option. Once they've finished pestering everyone over their PU freeze idea that is, which oddly enough, no one else wants.
Mercedes HPP are able to supply up to 4 teams only under rulings.
They already meet this limit for the long term at present, with no foreseeable changes to this (Merc AMG, Aston Martin, McLaren & Williams all with contracts beyond 2022); therefore they do not knowingly have the capacity or ability to supply Red Bull and/or Alpha Tauri from that point
Totos comments are accurate, it presently has nothing to do with Toto or Mercedes 'wanting' to supply them or not.
In any case - if not, that's the sort of rule that can quickly be re-written if no one objects, and no reason why anyone should if Renault and Ferrari don't care to supply RB themselves. It would still be more likely than RB getting their PU dev freeze...
Overall as I have said, by far the most likely has to be to begrudgingly follow the existing rules as intended and go back to Renault..
I can't imagine Renault objecting, all good money, but I can see why RBR might not be happy to return to them, even though performance is much better than it was a couple of years ago
Benrad said:
TheDeuce said:
djgritt said:
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say it's heavily weighted favour of them ending up with Renault power again! Unless Toto is willing to supply them and is just keeping his cards very close to his chest.
He's already said that Mercedes don't have the capacity to supply two more teams. Renault are their only option among the remaining manufacturers. - there is always an opportunity to reflect on a statement and then revise it...Although I do happen to think Toto would rather not supply RB, and that Renault are the only remotely likely option. Once they've finished pestering everyone over their PU freeze idea that is, which oddly enough, no one else wants.
Mercedes HPP are able to supply up to 4 teams only under rulings.
They already meet this limit for the long term at present, with no foreseeable changes to this (Merc AMG, Aston Martin, McLaren & Williams all with contracts beyond 2022); therefore they do not knowingly have the capacity or ability to supply Red Bull and/or Alpha Tauri from that point
Totos comments are accurate, it presently has nothing to do with Toto or Mercedes 'wanting' to supply them or not.
In any case - if not, that's the sort of rule that can quickly be re-written if no one objects, and no reason why anyone should if Renault and Ferrari don't care to supply RB themselves. It would still be more likely than RB getting their PU dev freeze...
Overall as I have said, by far the most likely has to be to begrudgingly follow the existing rules as intended and go back to Renault..
I can't imagine Renault objecting, all good money, but I can see why RBR might not be happy to return to them, even though performance is much better than it was a couple of years ago
That is indeed a very good point.
I was never suggesting that it would make sense for Merc to supply either/both anyway - just pointing out that it's F1 and stranger things have happened. Certainly stranger than a TP claiming they can't do something and then 5 minutes later changing their mind. Or Horner telling a driver they have his full support whilst simultaneously finishing the wording on their 'sorry you have to leave' card.
//j17 said:
And why on earth would VAG want Honda F1 engine tech - I'm sure they would take one look and decide their Audi and Porsche LMP1Hy tech. is on a par with it and more road-relavent.
What if VAG want to enter F1 down the line? An understanding and access to a winning engine expedites the R and D process over starting from scratch.Domincalli is entering F1 as the new CEO. He is or was the Lamborghini CEO so has close ties to the VAG group. It could be a big coup for him bringing a big name onboard.
Schermerhorn said:
//j17 said:
And why on earth would VAG want Honda F1 engine tech - I'm sure they would take one look and decide their Audi and Porsche LMP1Hy tech. is on a par with it and more road-relavent.
What if VAG want to enter F1 down the line? An understanding and access to a winning engine expedites the R and D process over starting from scratch.Domincalli is entering F1 as the new CEO. He is or was the Lamborghini CEO so has close ties to the VAG group. It could be a big coup for him bringing a big name onboard.
People scoffed at rumours of Porsche coming back in, saying it was all hearsay or maybe Porsche just dropping hints for PR value. Turned out they'd been in cahoots with F1 and the FIA and had got as far as developing and proving an new F1 PU - sadly for a PU spec that was mooted to replace the current spec next year but then canned.
I'm not certain VAG would fit as they're particularly well placed to make a deep dive in to EV, and have proven excellent tech advancements in that area - Tesla beware.... But for sure, others are bound to be toying with the idea and if F1/FIA start to get desperate they probably know exactly what needs changing to get 'whoever' over the line.
But those are all broader future issues and making sure it appeals to a safe number of manufacturers will no doubt determine the eventual new PU spec. For right now RB's problem isn't actually a massive problem for F1, it's a massive problem for RB. As such it's all up to them to convince a suitable new outfit to join the F1 game as a PU manufacturer. I don't fancy their chances... It's a VERY big ask of anyone to get involved so late in the PU spec lifespan with only a few years to make anything of it. If they get lucky they might find someone can be convinced if that someone is already working towards entering F1 when the spec change does happen, and could be convinced to move earlier than planned - a little like Mercedes did in anticipation of becoming competitive when the current PU spec was put in to use.
Schermerhorn said:
//j17 said:
And why on earth would VAG want Honda F1 engine tech - I'm sure they would take one look and decide their Audi and Porsche LMP1Hy tech. is on a par with it and more road-relavent.
What if VAG want to enter F1 down the line? An understanding and access to a winning engine expedites the R and D process over starting from scratch.Domincalli is entering F1 as the new CEO. He is or was the Lamborghini CEO so has close ties to the VAG group. It could be a big coup for him bringing a big name onboard.
Edited by //j17 on Wednesday 25th November 10:16
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