Cayman S 987 Gear problem? Diagnosis appreciated!

[glowth1]

Bought car new, owned since 2006, done 110,000 miles. Currently on SORN. Start it every month and give it a short run. This time, it started fine, but I initially could not engage any gears. After a little gentle, patient persuasion, I can now get it in to all the gears, but when I release the clutch the car moves, but only a couple of inches. It feels like it hits something solid, then rolls back to original position and again, hits something solid. It is not stuck in a particular gear. It ticks over fine when in neutral. It's not the brakes - I've had them stuck on before and know what that feels like.

I've read about problems with cables and linkages, but as it appears to be moving (albeit only a couple of inches), I'm confused.

I'm not a DIYer, and I'm not planning on getting it back on the road until April 1, but I'd appreciate any advice before I splash out to get it recovered to a garage. Cheers.

[ATM]

I had this. It was serious destruction inside the gearbox. It was therefore scrap. Prior to the final calamity it acted like this.

https://youtu.be/GL7N0k0KMAE

When my indie took the box out he said it was this -
Selector fork bolt has snapped off lots of debris in oil and found that the crown wheel and pinion have destroyed themselves hence locking up when reversing.

[Slippydiff]

Could be as above, though the inability to select gears would frequently indicate a clutch/clutch clearance issue.

[Magnum 475]

I've not had the selection problem, but moving an inch or two each way can be stuck parking brake shoes. Had this on my 987 a few years back - had recently had new rear disks and pads fitting by an Indy. Turns out they'd adjusted the parking brake incorrectly, and although I'd left it in the garage with the parking brake off, the shoes still managed to corrode solidly onto the drums. Clearly I hadn't got the rear brakes hot enough on the last drive, and there was still some moisture in there.

[glowth1]

Appreciate your thoughts.

ATM - that is horrific and must have been expensive. The 'couple of inches' movement I was referring to, was the whole car, not the gear stick. I really don't want that to be the problem (puts head in sand).

Sliddydiff - it really feels like it rolls and hits something metal like a gear, so I did wonder if it was something to do with the clutch not doing its job. I had the original clutch changed at 50,000 miles and this one has taken me to 110,000. Maybe time for a change. I have no idea why the gear stick was so difficult to move initially.

Magum475 - As I only move the car every month or so, I've had to overcome sticky brakes before. I also leave the parking brake off. This feels different. I'll take a second look though.

It might take me a few months to get this sorted, but I'll post up what the garage conclude the problem is. Thanks again.

[ATM]

glowth1 said:

ATM - that is horrific and must have been expensive. The 'couple of inches' movement I was referring to, was the whole car, not the gear stick. I really don't want that to be the problem (puts head in sand).

Understood

My whole car eventually got jammed up as described. So it would move forward by about 1 or 2 foot and then hit something solid and want to return. It was bizarre and made no sense.

The gear stick thing was a precursor. Dont get too hung up on this aspect. The point is the selector fork became disengaged or disconnected. This is what moves the gears inside the box. Your symptoms sound very similar to mine although I was perhaps a little more brutal and got the car to move more than a couple of inches.

[Escy]

If you put it on gear without the engine running will it move forward on the starter motor?

[Slippydiff]

glowth1 said:

Appreciate your thoughts.

ATM - that is horrific and must have been expensive. The 'couple of inches' movement I was referring to, was the whole car, not the gear stick. I really don't want that to be the problem (puts head in sand).

Sliddydiff - it really feels like it rolls and hits something metal like a gear, so I did wonder if it was something to do with the clutch not doing its job. I had the original clutch changed at 50,000 miles and this one has taken me to 110,000. Maybe time for a change. I have no idea why the gear stick was so difficult to move initially.

Magum475 - As I only move the car every month or so, I've had to overcome sticky brakes before. I also leave the parking brake off. This feels different. I'll take a second look though.

It might take me a few months to get this sorted, but I'll post up what the garage conclude the problem is. Thanks again.

Well I've never been referred to as Sliddydiff before, but no offense taken

If the clutch centre plate was seized or partially seized (due to being left to stand without use) onto the splines of the gearbox input shaft, pressing the clutch would not disconnect the drive between the flywheel and the gearbox, which in turn would make gear selection awkward/impossible until the plate freed off on its splines sufficiently to allow the drive to the gearbox to cease.

It's probably too late to test this now, but the best way to see if it had happened, would be to switch the engine off, put the car into first gear and then try and restart it with your foot OFF the clutch pedal but your foot on the brake. If the engine won't turn over/start, the clutch disc has either seized onto its splines or the clutch centre and drive plates may have stuck together.

[glowth1]

Escy / SliPPydiff - I think you're both asking me to do the same thing, but what is the risk of damaging the gearbox internals by trying this? ATM's pics are already giving me nightmares!

[Slippydiff]

glowth1 said:

Escy / SliPPydiff - I think you're both asking me to do the same thing, but what is the risk of damaging the gearbox internals by trying this? ATM's pics are already giving me nightmares!

Well I'm guessing your car is nosed into the garage ? and thus you need to arrest its progress into the garage wall/lawnmower/workbench etc...

If however it's facing away from the garage door (or there's a 3-4 foot gap prior to wiping out the contents of the garage) you can turn the key without the any brakes (hand or foot) with the car in neutral and your foot off the clutch. The car will either start normally (ie the clutch is fine and thus there'll be no drive between the engine and the gearbox) or it'll move forward, if it moves forward you'll need to switch of the ignition sharpish and stamp on the brake pedal

Quite often the very act of turning the starter with it in gear and your foot off the clutch pedal, but on the brake pedal, will free off the partially seized clutch.
By NOT holding the car on the brakes and allowing it to be driven forward by the starter motor, you're minimising the chances of any damage to the starter, the clutch and/or the gearbox.

[Escy]

There's no risk to the gearbox. It's probably putting the starter motor under extra strain. The idea is if you put it in gear without the engine running and turn it over if the car moves you can rule out an issue with the gearbox/linkage/selectors. That then leaves you with the clutch itself, like Slippydiff is saying, it's probably rusted onto the flywheel so it's not disengaging when you press the pedal (because its been sat for a while).

After you've done the first test to establish that's the case, to try and free it off, you could try try turning over the car with it in gear and the clutch pedal down, with any luck that'll free it off.

[glowth1]

The car won't do this. If I try to do it, nothing happens, except the dashboard tells me to put the clutch in!
The car unfortunately lives outside, so I guess there greater risk that things do get stuck together. I'm guessing there's no work-around to this?

[ATM]

The next best option is to see if the car will roll in neutral - can you push or pull it?

[Escy]

You can run a wire (or paper clip) between the 2 terminals on the clutch pedal sensor so it thinks it is in.

I'd just do this though, engine off, put it in first gear with the clutch pedal down, turn the engine over, as soon as it tries to turn the engine over, come off the clutch pedal (sharply). That might be enough to free it off.

[glowth1]

Thanks. I'll try both thing tomorrow, when I can get back to it.
Just a quick thought though. I did pressure wash the car before parking up. I have had to crack the brakes before and it feels like a dog straining at the leash before snapping off. This is different, but I wasn't aware of the parking 'shoes' that Magnum 475 mentioned (I've never has these renewed). If they were seized would that let me roll a couple of inches, hit something solid-ish, then bounce back?
I know I'm 'clutching' at straws ...

[Magnum 475]

glowth1 said:

Thanks. I'll try both thing tomorrow, when I can get back to it.
Just a quick thought though. I did pressure wash the car before parking up. I have had to crack the brakes before and it feels like a dog straining at the leash before snapping off. This is different, but I wasn't aware of the parking 'shoes' that Magnum 475 mentioned (I've never has these renewed). If they were seized would that let me roll a couple of inches, hit something solid-ish, then bounce back?
I know I'm 'clutching' at straws ...

My little bit of movement was the retaining springs stretching / going back!

Ended up having to have the car moved out of the garage on dollies onto a spec tow to a (different) Indy who managed to dis-assemble the rear brakes and solve the problem. Had to have new discs, shoes, springs, etc. I'd had them stick a little bit before, but not like this. Try dropping it into neutral and see if it can be pushed at all.....

If you've pressure washed it and got water into the parking brake drums, you could have the same problem that I had. I only ever wash the car on a dry day, then take it out for a good blast to get some heat into the brakes before I put it away. Then I push it forwards/ back a few inches a couple of days later now!

[glowth1]

Thanks everyone. I've got 3 months to sort this out, so I may as well take the calipers and discs off and have a look. If it's not the parking brake I'll try disengaging the clutch/flywheel as recommended. If that doesn't work, it's off to the garage we go ...

Despite the problem, I'm 14 years in and still love the Cayman. My mates got a fast Tesla, but it's still a Tesla

[Slippydiff]

glowth1 said:

Thanks everyone. I've got 3 months to sort this out, so I may as well take the calipers and discs off and have a look. If it's not the parking brake I'll try disengaging the clutch/flywheel as recommended. If that doesn't work, it's off to the garage we go ...

Despite the problem, I'm 14 years in and still love the Cayman. My mates got a fast Tesla, but it's still a Tesla

Did you say you don't apply the handbrake when you leave the car standing in the garage ? If so, it shouldn't be causing the issue you're experiencing.
If however it was left left on, then yes, depending on how well the shoes were adjusted, there would be sufficient travel in the handbrake mechanism to allow the car to move a bit before stopping the disc/drum assembly from rotating any further.

Here's what it looks like in there :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbOFv_06O-4

It's pretty Dickensian arrangement, and PITA to overhaul and adjust properly ...

[glowth1]

Cheers for the link. I'd watched this guy - hilarious commentary and very helpful. Proper honest!
The car is not garaged unfortunately, but I can work on it where it stands. With regards to the handbrake, it's poor at the best of times. I was going to tackle that at MOT time. I'd read elsewhere that even without using it, the shoes can stick, but there's a good chance I pulled it on (automatic reaction), then put it down again. All ifs and buts I know. Just thinking I may as well have a look first. My gut tells me it's going to be something more expensive

[Magnum 475]

Slippydiff said:

Did you say you don't apply the handbrake when you leave the car standing in the garage ? If so, it shouldn't be causing the issue you're experiencing.
If however it was left left on, then yes, depending on how well the shoes were adjusted, there would be sufficient travel in the handbrake mechanism to allow the car to move a bit before stopping the disc/drum assembly from rotating any further.

Here's what it looks like in there :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbOFv_06O-4

It's pretty Dickensian arrangement, and PITA to overhaul and adjust properly ...

That's what you'd think - but if there's enough water in there and the parking brake isn't adjust correctly it can happen. Been there, paid the bill to have it all sorted. I didn't think it could be the parking brake, because I'd left the car in gear with the parking brake off. I was wrong. And annoyed. Very annoyed, as the garage I'd trusted to look after my car - a) hadn't adjusted the shoes properly when they replaced the disks and b) had charged me for Brembo parts, and fitted something much cheaper. Long fight with them got me absolutely nothing (it had been over 12 months, when the car hadn't moved much), except that now I don't go back there.