Timing chain snapped after a week, is private seller liable?
Discussion
2008 Mini Cooper S R56 with the 1.6 turbo engine, fitted i believe to a few other cars.
Private sale, £2,000, a very good price for a 70,000 miles example. New owner has been in touch to say timing chain snapped a week after sale. Owner, a member of my staff, not in a position to refund the £2,000 being demanded as he has put it towards his new car, a 2015 Cooper S. Buyer says not fit for purpose. In all truth yes the timing chain was a bit noisy from cold but it drove well and the noise was gone after a few minutes of warming up. Service history shows new timing chain at 41,000 miles.
Would you give all or some of the money being asked or refuse? He wants a full refund as the engine as he put it is 'chocolate'.
Private sale, £2,000, a very good price for a 70,000 miles example. New owner has been in touch to say timing chain snapped a week after sale. Owner, a member of my staff, not in a position to refund the £2,000 being demanded as he has put it towards his new car, a 2015 Cooper S. Buyer says not fit for purpose. In all truth yes the timing chain was a bit noisy from cold but it drove well and the noise was gone after a few minutes of warming up. Service history shows new timing chain at 41,000 miles.
Would you give all or some of the money being asked or refuse? He wants a full refund as the engine as he put it is 'chocolate'.
BertBert said:
Well on the face of it the new buyer can't have their money back as others have said, unless there is some other factor at play where the seller misrepresented the car.
However I don't understand why a timing chain would need replacing at 41k miles, then snap at 70k.
Because the N14 R56 mini has a well known timing chain tensioner issue, and combined with a thirst for drinking oil, allows the chain to run slack, especially on cold start (rattles) and then the guides snap, and the chain fails.However I don't understand why a timing chain would need replacing at 41k miles, then snap at 70k.
Pretty poor design, amongst other features of that engine, needs regular oil level checks, and far frequent oil changes than recommended by mini.
Assuming that all the facts are exactly as you've stated I tell the new buyer to do one and point to the fact that the timing chain was less than 30,000 miles old.
This is of course ignoring the fact that your man who sold the car knew it was noisy and I suspect also had a good idea that the chain may have been on its way out again.
This is of course ignoring the fact that your man who sold the car knew it was noisy and I suspect also had a good idea that the chain may have been on its way out again.
"buyer says not fit for purpose".... That is consumer law speak, if they wanted consumer law protection, buy from a dealer.
Private sale, unless you knew of its impending doom, and they can prove it, there is no recourse.
They could say its a well known issue and you should have known, in that case, do should they!
Private sale, unless you knew of its impending doom, and they can prove it, there is no recourse.
They could say its a well known issue and you should have known, in that case, do should they!
Just ignore it, its a private sale, no warranty implied or given, Single response ‘Sorry this has happened, but I’m not a mechanic and don’t even know where or what the timing chain is’ and block.
Does kind of sound like the seller knew though, which isnt great, he did not need to highlight it, but cant lie about it if asked, ‘ant problems with the car’ should have been answered with ‘ it sometimes rattles a bit when cold’
Does kind of sound like the seller knew though, which isnt great, he did not need to highlight it, but cant lie about it if asked, ‘ant problems with the car’ should have been answered with ‘ it sometimes rattles a bit when cold’
rigga said:
BertBert said:
Well on the face of it the new buyer can't have their money back as others have said, unless there is some other factor at play where the seller misrepresented the car.
However I don't understand why a timing chain would need replacing at 41k miles, then snap at 70k.
Because the N14 R56 mini has a well known timing chain tensioner issue, and combined with a thirst for drinking oil, allows the chain to run slack, especially on cold start (rattles) and then the guides snap, and the chain fails.However I don't understand why a timing chain would need replacing at 41k miles, then snap at 70k.
Pretty poor design, amongst other features of that engine, needs regular oil level checks, and far frequent oil changes than recommended by mini.
Poor design, low oil level usually equals lunched engine.
Buyer had time to inspect it, drove it around for a week then it broke, no different than if the clutch went.
Want a car with a warranty? Buy from a dealer and pay the extra. Explain that to him politely and that its no different to going out and buying a used washing machine and if he still persists tell him to f
k right off.. A1VDY- car dealer..
Timing chain tensioner failed by the sounds, noise on start up would have been a big clue to potential issues and the need for the timing kit to be replaced again.
Noise is usually the most noticable on a cold start up, with the chain slightly slacking and making quite a noise, once the oil pressure starts to build up, the tensioner does its job and the chain becomes taunt (tensioner works on oil pressure, hence this is why these engines need the oil checking on a regular basis).
Unfortunately for the new owner, its a bit unlucky, unless the previous owner witheld any information (which will be hard to prove), there is no come back and the new owner will have to replace the engine.
Noise is usually the most noticable on a cold start up, with the chain slightly slacking and making quite a noise, once the oil pressure starts to build up, the tensioner does its job and the chain becomes taunt (tensioner works on oil pressure, hence this is why these engines need the oil checking on a regular basis).
Unfortunately for the new owner, its a bit unlucky, unless the previous owner witheld any information (which will be hard to prove), there is no come back and the new owner will have to replace the engine.
ruggedscotty said:
wont matter.... warm or cold...
2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
Yes it will. 2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
If the seller hasn’t mentioned the noise in advert , was aware of the noise and what it meant and deliberately warmed up the engine beforehand to hide this !
If this is the case the seller is going to have a case imo , not as described.
tonyb1968 said:
Unfortunately for the new owner, its a bit unlucky, unless the previous owner witheld any information (which will be hard to prove), there is no come back and the new owner will have to replace the engine.
I think the way second hand cars are marketed on the TV these days has caused people to assume that they are always perfect and problem free. Previously, the second hand market was very much for those with knowledge (or a knowledgeable friend), especially when it came to private sales.
This sale has all the hallmarks of someone 'moving on' a car to an uninformed buyer because an expense was imminent. Caveat Emptor!
Iwantafusca said:
ruggedscotty said:
wont matter.... warm or cold...
2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
Yes it will. 2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
If the seller hasn’t mentioned the noise in advert , was aware of the noise and what it meant and deliberately warmed up the engine beforehand to hide this !
If this is the case the seller is going to have a case imo , not as described.
Can you see where any action against the seller would go.... yes, absolutely nowwhere...
Iwantafusca said:
ruggedscotty said:
wont matter.... warm or cold...
2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
Yes it will. 2nd hand low end of the market you takes your chance. if you want warranty and all that then buy from a dealer with a warranty. no good for the purchaser but id be tellig the buyer to do one...
If the seller hasn’t mentioned the noise in advert , was aware of the noise and what it meant and deliberately warmed up the engine beforehand to hide this !
If this is the case the seller is going to have a case imo , not as described.
Off topic slightly but just recently we sold a Cooper. Before sale we always give our cars a comprehensive checkover/ service /cambelt ( if required) new mot/ full wet vac/ sanitise /paintwork detail.
This particular car had new rear exhaust mount, gearbox mount, front lower arms, track rod ends/ nsf w/brg/ osr w/brg and 5 new copper brake pipes Inc 3 hoses.
A month later we receive a fictitious bill for brake pipes and lower arms which this woman had supposedly just had replaced for £400. She described the condition of the car as 'shocking' / kids in car blah blah bks ect.
She screen shot the 'invoice' with the MINI reg number but other details for a Fiesta still showing
Needless to say we just ignored the biatch as did the mot garage.
This particular car had new rear exhaust mount, gearbox mount, front lower arms, track rod ends/ nsf w/brg/ osr w/brg and 5 new copper brake pipes Inc 3 hoses.
A month later we receive a fictitious bill for brake pipes and lower arms which this woman had supposedly just had replaced for £400. She described the condition of the car as 'shocking' / kids in car blah blah b
ks ect. She screen shot the 'invoice' with the MINI reg number but other details for a Fiesta still showing
Needless to say we just ignored the biatch as did the mot garage.
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