Ev, hybrid, PHEV, what is best for us?

[ADogg]

Good day,

My wife has declared she wants a new car. She does circa 15k a year and her work is an A and B road 35 miles each way. At present she has a Yeti DSG which is getting around 40mpg on the route. She likes bigger cars and it’ll be the family hack.

I’ve driven an i3 REX and loved it but I think the boot is too dinky. She wants something more economical and “green”.

What cars, or fuel types would you recommend would be suitable for us?

[SWoll]

What is your budget and is she able to charge at home/work?

[anonymous-user]

We got rid of our family yeti and bought a Nissan Leaf. We'd argue its larger inside than a yet, almost as tall and has more range than most similarly priced EVs. Another option is the Kia Soul EV which we were very tempted by.

[robbieduncan]

How long are your frequent journeys? We have a PHEV as most of our journeys are less than 15 miles so we do that vast majority of our driving on battery. Had there been a BEV estate when we bought I’d have probably gone for that. All our charging is at home. In about 9 months we’ve put 511kWh into the car. That’s over 1000 miles for less than £90 of “fuel”

[littleredrooster]

robbieduncan said:

That’s over 1000 miles for less than £90 of “fuel”

Really? That would only have been ~£75 in our (non-plugin) Prius.

[kambites]

Assuming you have somewhere to charge it, I think the obvious answer is the MG ZS EV. It's slightly smaller than the Yeti but not hugely so. Official range is 160 miles so you should reliably get well over 100, even in the depths of winter.

[robbieduncan]

littleredrooster said:

Really? That would only have been ~£75 in our (non-plugin) Prius.

There is a lot of rounding and estimation in there. I rounded up the cost of the electricity to the nearest £10 (it’s more like £85). I ignored the free electricity from our solar panels. And I assumed the absolute worst electricity efficiency I’ve seen (2m/kWh). I have seen as high as 4. I expect if I’d really worked it out we would have got more like 1200-1400 miles for £85

I am impressed your Prius can do 1000 miles on 68l of petrol though. For many cars that’s 1 tank...

[ADogg]

Budget wise we’re flexible. But not Tesla or I-Pace flexible!

Her commute is about 50 minutes each way. I have a Cooper SD which is OK mpg wise seeing early to mid 50’s but that too may be going as it’s been a bit of a nightmare reliability wise.

Interesting to see the comments about the Leaf, I’ll add that to the possibilities.

She can’t charge at work but we can at home.

I checked out a new Corolla when I drove past Toyota earlier and they look quite good?

[robbieduncan]

ADogg said:

Budget wise we’re flexible. But not Tesla or I-Pace flexible!

Her commute is about 50 minutes each way. I have a Cooper SD which is OK mpg wise seeing early to mid 50’s but that too may be going as it’s been a bit of a nightmare reliability wise.

Interesting to see the comments about the Leaf, I’ll add that to the possibilities.

She can’t charge at work but we can at home.

I checked out a new Corolla when I drove past Toyota earlier and they look quite good?

I’d probably rule out a PHEV the. Even in summer they are mostly limited to about 30 miles range. So you’ll spend a lot of the time with little to no battery power and more weight.

[anonymous-user]

Before we went for the leaf we tested the Kia Soul (a bit expensive), Honda E (great design, crap range, no boot), Mini (its a mini i.e. small, no boot, crap range) and Peugeot 208 (small, awful driving position). We sat in the BMW i3 but it just seemed small and over priced. We didn't try any MGs as the reviews seemed to say they were a bit poor on the build quality and infotainment. The VW wasn't available for a drive so couldn't evaluate that one but it sounds good from the reviews. The new Mazda also looks good.

The leaf was the last one we tried as I'd forgotten about it! It turned out to tick all the boxes so we ordered one straight after the test drive.

[kambites]

The thing which puts me off the Leaf is the lack of active battery temperature management. Personally I wouldn't buy an EV without a liquid cooled battery.

[survivalist]

kambites said:

The thing which puts me off the Leaf is the lack of active battery temperature management. Personally I wouldn't buy an EV without a liquid cooled battery.

Excuse my ignorance, but why is that important? Range of longevity?

[kambites]

survivalist said:

kambites said:

The thing which puts me off the Leaf is the lack of active battery temperature management. Personally I wouldn't buy an EV without a liquid cooled battery.

Excuse my ignorance, but why is that important? Range of longevity?

Both. Firstly, running Lithium Ion batteries outside their optimal temperature range severely impacts their short-term capacity meaning that adverse weather conditions have a greater effect on range than they would on a car which can manage its battery temperature properly. Secondly, running (and especially fast-charging) the batteries outside their optimal temperature range causes premature degradation so the batteries wont last as long. Thirdly, hot batteries cannot be charged quickly, so fast-charging the batteries of something like a Leaf repeatedly on the same journey, especially in warm weather, doesn't really work.

And finally, cars with liquid cooling of the batteries are more efficient at using battery heat to warm the cabin so using the heaters tends to have less effect on range.

[survivalist]

kambites said:

survivalist said:

kambites said:

The thing which puts me off the Leaf is the lack of active battery temperature management. Personally I wouldn't buy an EV without a liquid cooled battery.

Excuse my ignorance, but why is that important? Range of longevity?

Both. Firstly, running Lithium Ion batteries outside their optimal temperature range severely impacts their short-term capacity meaning that adverse weather conditions have a greater effect on range than they would on a car which can manage its battery temperature properly. Secondly, running (and especially fast-charging) the batteries outside their optimal temperature range causes premature degradation so the batteries wont last as long. Thirdly, hot batteries cannot be charged quickly, so fast-charging the batteries of something like a Leaf repeatedly on the same journey, especially in warm weather, doesn't really work.

And finally, cars with liquid cooling of the batteries are more efficient at using battery heat to warm the cabin so using the heaters tends to have less effect on range.

Might explain why they are cheaper to lease than all the other options. 95% if our use would be local trips, less than 30 miles each way. What happens when they get to hot? Performance ok but charging speeds rubbish?

[kambites]

survivalist said:

Might explain why they are cheaper to lease than all the other options. 95% if our use would be local trips, less than 30 miles each way. What happens when they get to hot? Performance ok but charging speeds rubbish?

When they get hot, fast charging speeds collapse but with Leafs that doesn't really seem to be an issue until the second fast-charge of a journey. More of a problem is when they get cold because there's really no way to warm up the battery pack. Where a car with proper thermal management might lose 20% of its range on a cold winter's day, one without it can easily lose 50% (although probably not in the south of England, because it just doesn't get that cold).

Of course there are advantages too. Packs without liquid cooling tend to be far easier to remove from the vehicle and hence easier to repair if they fail.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 31st December 19:32

[anonymous-user]

We did consider the lack of CCS before going ahead with the lease but the way we saw it at the time is that the lease is only 3 years and fast chargers aren't exactly common at the moment. What we've found after a few months of ownership is that we only charge at home anyway so it's irrelevant (for us). We only charge up twice or less a week and also top up using the work charger.

It's not like it's a fundamental design flaw. The leaf is the no. 1 best selling EV so a lot of owners haven't found it a problem. Sure, it's old tech that's being phased out but therein lies the beauty of leasing; by the time the lease ends new tech will be available

[littleredrooster]

robbieduncan said:

There is a lot of rounding and estimation in there. I rounded up the cost of the electricity to the nearest £10 (it’s more like £85). I ignored the free electricity from our solar panels. And I assumed the absolute worst electricity efficiency I’ve seen (2m/kWh). I have seen as high as 4. I expect if I’d really worked it out we would have got more like 1200-1400 miles for £85

I am impressed your Prius can do 1000 miles on 68l of petrol though. For many cars that’s 1 tank...

Since we bought it brand-new it's done ~25000 miles at an average of 71mpg, slightly less in winter, bit more in summer, mostly spirited driving. It saves the planet. The MX-5 saves my senility

[dmsims]

MG ZS EV
ID3
Kona / Eniro

[Phunk]

kambites said:

survivalist said:

Might explain why they are cheaper to lease than all the other options. 95% if our use would be local trips, less than 30 miles each way. What happens when they get to hot? Performance ok but charging speeds rubbish?

When they get hot, fast charging speeds collapse but with Leafs that doesn't really seem to be an issue until the second fast-charge of a journey. More of a problem is when they get cold because there's really no way to warm up the battery pack. Where a car with proper thermal management might lose 20% of its range on a cold winter's day, one without it can easily lose 50% (although probably not in the south of England, because it just doesn't get that cold).

Of course there are advantages too. Packs without liquid cooling tend to be far easier to remove from the vehicle and hence easier to repair if they fail.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 31st December 19:32

It depends if this is an issue for your use case.

If you're just commuting well within its range and rarely do longer trips that require multiple rapid charges it's a non issue.

If you're looking at a new vehicle I'd look at the ID3 or MG ZS EV which are both good options with a good range for their price.

It might also be worth looking into https://on.to, their monthly rentals aren't miles off what you'd pay to own an EV outright with the added flexibility of being able to try different cars and a monthly rolling contract.

[kambites]

Phunk said:

It depends if this is an issue for your use case.

Indeed, I'm not saying it's uselss. Given how cheaply you can get the things, the 40kwh version probably makes a lot of sense for people who can live with a mid-winter range of well under 100 miles, although from what I've seen I'd still argue that the ZS EV is a better car.