Can you still enjoy music from deplorable artists?
Discussion
I had a debate with a family member recently about still listening to and enjoying music from artists who are, shall we say “problematic”. For example, they refuse to listen to Michael Jackson as they believe he was most likely a paedophile, despite previously liking some of his songs.
I also think the likelihood of him being a child abuser is high but I don’t believe this should impact on my enjoyment of some of his songs. Likewise with Gary Glitter and Rock and Roll Part 2 which is a tune.
From what I gather there are 2 main arguments:
1. They might like the music but don’t want to financially support someone on the basis of their bad deeds (alleged or otherwise)
2. They can’t separate the artist from the music. I know some people who also refuse to listen to artists purely on the basis they do not like their personality. Whereas I will enjoy music from people like Noel Gallagher, Morrissey, Kanye etc despite thinking that they’re massive w
kers.
What side are you on? (Would have done a poll but believe I have to ask permission and I cba)
I also think the likelihood of him being a child abuser is high but I don’t believe this should impact on my enjoyment of some of his songs. Likewise with Gary Glitter and Rock and Roll Part 2 which is a tune.
From what I gather there are 2 main arguments:
1. They might like the music but don’t want to financially support someone on the basis of their bad deeds (alleged or otherwise)
2. They can’t separate the artist from the music. I know some people who also refuse to listen to artists purely on the basis they do not like their personality. Whereas I will enjoy music from people like Noel Gallagher, Morrissey, Kanye etc despite thinking that they’re massive w
kers.What side are you on? (Would have done a poll but believe I have to ask permission and I cba)
I think the question is no different to whether you can enjoy a film directed by Roman Polanski, or Harvey Weinstein. It invokes the idea of the 'death of the author,' to use the title of Roland Barthes' essay on the concept.
I'm inclined to say you can enjoy a work even if its creator, or someone involved in its production, turns out to be a monster. To enjoy their output is by no means calling for them to be placed in a position where they can create or cause harm once more. There are examples of this which stand out to me, like the band Lostprophets. Play 'Start Something or 'Rooftops' and I am transported back once more to 2008/9.
However, the band's frontman, Ian Watkins, is by all accounts a filthy nonce. I would shed no tears if I found out he croaked overnight (the world might become a marginally better place for it). That can extend to other musicians and other art forms as well. In the case of my example, somebody somewhere pointed out that their music was not the work of Watkins alone. An entire band was responsible, as were producers, sound engineers and others. I like to think that, in my example, the band knew nothing of Watkins' misdeeds.
Furthermore, if you enjoy an artist's music or a director's films, nobody else need know. I would have my reservations in even mentioning my example openly precisely because Watkins disgusts me, though I do my best to separate the art from the criminal behind it. In his case, it is clear-cut that he is a criminal. Someone like Michael Jackson might actually be easier to enjoy without definite evidence of his wrongdoing.
I'm inclined to say you can enjoy a work even if its creator, or someone involved in its production, turns out to be a monster. To enjoy their output is by no means calling for them to be placed in a position where they can create or cause harm once more. There are examples of this which stand out to me, like the band Lostprophets. Play 'Start Something or 'Rooftops' and I am transported back once more to 2008/9.
However, the band's frontman, Ian Watkins, is by all accounts a filthy nonce. I would shed no tears if I found out he croaked overnight (the world might become a marginally better place for it). That can extend to other musicians and other art forms as well. In the case of my example, somebody somewhere pointed out that their music was not the work of Watkins alone. An entire band was responsible, as were producers, sound engineers and others. I like to think that, in my example, the band knew nothing of Watkins' misdeeds.
Furthermore, if you enjoy an artist's music or a director's films, nobody else need know. I would have my reservations in even mentioning my example openly precisely because Watkins disgusts me, though I do my best to separate the art from the criminal behind it. In his case, it is clear-cut that he is a criminal. Someone like Michael Jackson might actually be easier to enjoy without definite evidence of his wrongdoing.
Yes, but there are limits.
With MJ, I can definitely still listen to and enjoy. There's no denying he was a great artist and performer, and a real music fan rather than in it for the money and fame. However it wasn't just him creating the music; lots of input from songwriters and producers to create some of his incredible work, Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones, Nile Rodgers amongst others - So when listening to some of MJ's work, I can take some solace knowing that it wasn't just MJ creating what I'm hearing.
It's a long time since I read this, but here's a thread from a guy who worked with MJ recounting some of his experiences. It should be taken with a pinch of salt, but if you're interested in how MJ worked etc it's worth a read https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-li...
Quite a few of my favourite albums feature musicians who've committed crimes; murder etc. and it doesn't really phase me. Some have questionable policitcs/views, which doesn't bother me enough to not listen to their music, but it can be a bit of a moral dilemma in terms of supporting them financially by purchasing their wares.
It's a little different when it's an adult abusing kids though. While I've never liked Lost Prophets, I don't think there's anyway I could detach myself to listen after what the vocalist has done. He did vocals on a dance track; which didn't have much success but I quite liked it and I've not listened to it since.
With MJ, I can definitely still listen to and enjoy. There's no denying he was a great artist and performer, and a real music fan rather than in it for the money and fame. However it wasn't just him creating the music; lots of input from songwriters and producers to create some of his incredible work, Rod Temperton, Quincy Jones, Nile Rodgers amongst others - So when listening to some of MJ's work, I can take some solace knowing that it wasn't just MJ creating what I'm hearing.
It's a long time since I read this, but here's a thread from a guy who worked with MJ recounting some of his experiences. It should be taken with a pinch of salt, but if you're interested in how MJ worked etc it's worth a read https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-li...
Quite a few of my favourite albums feature musicians who've committed crimes; murder etc. and it doesn't really phase me. Some have questionable policitcs/views, which doesn't bother me enough to not listen to their music, but it can be a bit of a moral dilemma in terms of supporting them financially by purchasing their wares.
It's a little different when it's an adult abusing kids though. While I've never liked Lost Prophets, I don't think there's anyway I could detach myself to listen after what the vocalist has done. He did vocals on a dance track; which didn't have much success but I quite liked it and I've not listened to it since.
People seemed to just accept MJ's 'wacko' status since the early 90s, he was big/legendary enough so it hasn't really damaged his legacy completely. The songs also stand up.
Rolf Harris in the other hand I just can't listen to anymore!
In all seriousness I did have some early Lostprophets stuff but don't think it appropriate to listen to anymore because Ian Watkins' crimes were just too shocking.
It is annoying if it is an artist you really love and something like that comes out though, but most of the time it wouldn't stop me enjoying the music. Ryan Adams was disgraced a little while back but hopefully will redeem himself because he's done some decent stuff over the years. It's the same with films - do you stop watching stuff made by Harvey Weinstein or featuring Kevin Spacey etc? No I wouldn't want to do that.
Rolf Harris in the other hand I just can't listen to anymore!
In all seriousness I did have some early Lostprophets stuff but don't think it appropriate to listen to anymore because Ian Watkins' crimes were just too shocking.
It is annoying if it is an artist you really love and something like that comes out though, but most of the time it wouldn't stop me enjoying the music. Ryan Adams was disgraced a little while back but hopefully will redeem himself because he's done some decent stuff over the years. It's the same with films - do you stop watching stuff made by Harvey Weinstein or featuring Kevin Spacey etc? No I wouldn't want to do that.
I seperate the artist from the music.
I still listen to Gary Glitters Christmas song. All the youngsters at work love it until they know who is singing it.
There are a few Rolf Harris songs on my MP3 player and a Jonathan King song.
I have no problem with Michael Jackson or his songs.
I often wondered if, say, Paul McCartney turned out to be a wrong 'un, would they try to erase The Beatles from history. Would that even be possible?
I still listen to Gary Glitters Christmas song. All the youngsters at work love it until they know who is singing it.
There are a few Rolf Harris songs on my MP3 player and a Jonathan King song.
I have no problem with Michael Jackson or his songs.
I often wondered if, say, Paul McCartney turned out to be a wrong 'un, would they try to erase The Beatles from history. Would that even be possible?
It is certainly a constant question for me as a massive fan of Black metal, It has a far-right/National Socialist element unfortunately. Well, I don't know about constant, metal has always been political to some extent, mostly on the left so it is reasonably easy to find resources on what, who and which labels you might wish to avoid, but it is without a doubt a genre that has more issues like these than most.
BM has typically had satanic themes and is generally anti-christian/religion and often glorifying pagan times, there's a handful of practicing satanists around etc, but there has been some BM over the years and still exists now with very blatant racist, far right etc. lyrics or imagery (eg. SS logos), there are known labels full of them too.
I try to steer clear of NSBM completely, I've removed quite a few bands from my Spotify which aren't part of the NSBM subgenre if you could call it one , but have close links to people who are or known to have those views (Drudkh, Nokturnal Mortum, Mgla).
I don't think I can separate art from artist personally, though it is something I need weigh up by case sometimes. I will listen to Emperor still; the drummer on one of their two best albums murdered a gay man 2 years before that record came out in fact, and as far as I know never expressed a bean of remorse, has subsequently toured with them again and I'm not sure I really agree with what the main guy behind Emperor has said about this. If I owned a lot of their merch/records I might have second thoughts like a collector I watch on Youtube did.
I will not listen to Burzum even on Spotify however, I've never heard a note and even though I'd probably like it musically, Varg Vikernes is a psuedo-intellecual moron of the highest order, I'd rather not even have that fraction of a penny that might somehow get to him. (Vikernes also killed someone, another BM artist - who also was known for buying a disposable camera to take a photo of his bandmate after suicide by shotgun before phoning the police and later used it as record cover.... - long story, this is all part of the perhaps ridiculous and overblown mythos of BM, there's some even sillier rumor parts to this story).
Hades are another band directly involved in church burnings back in the day, I couldn't care about organised religion but I don't like the fact stave churches as beautiful historic buildings were destroyed, given that was 25+ years ago I'm not sure I'd drop the music I like over it. Finnish black metal has a particular problem with NSBM, there are lots of bands with very direct links. I avoid most of it besides Moonsorrow, who have no direct links but toured with another band who are said to, and subsequently defended as 'friends' after the fuss it caused - perhaps I should discount them too, they are one of my favorite bands, I don't think I can consider it a line crossed.
BM has typically had satanic themes and is generally anti-christian/religion and often glorifying pagan times, there's a handful of practicing satanists around etc, but there has been some BM over the years and still exists now with very blatant racist, far right etc. lyrics or imagery (eg. SS logos), there are known labels full of them too.
I try to steer clear of NSBM completely, I've removed quite a few bands from my Spotify which aren't part of the NSBM subgenre if you could call it one , but have close links to people who are or known to have those views (Drudkh, Nokturnal Mortum, Mgla).
I don't think I can separate art from artist personally, though it is something I need weigh up by case sometimes. I will listen to Emperor still; the drummer on one of their two best albums murdered a gay man 2 years before that record came out in fact, and as far as I know never expressed a bean of remorse, has subsequently toured with them again and I'm not sure I really agree with what the main guy behind Emperor has said about this. If I owned a lot of their merch/records I might have second thoughts like a collector I watch on Youtube did.
I will not listen to Burzum even on Spotify however, I've never heard a note and even though I'd probably like it musically, Varg Vikernes is a psuedo-intellecual moron
of the highest order, I'd rather not even have that fraction of a penny that might somehow get to him. (Vikernes also killed someone, another BM artist - who also was known for buying a disposable camera to take a photo of his bandmate after suicide by shotgun before phoning the police and later used it as record cover.... - long story, this is all part of the perhaps ridiculous and overblown mythos of BM, there's some even sillier rumor parts to this story). Hades are another band directly involved in church burnings back in the day, I couldn't care about organised religion but I don't like the fact stave churches as beautiful historic buildings were destroyed, given that was 25+ years ago I'm not sure I'd drop the music I like over it. Finnish black metal has a particular problem with NSBM, there are lots of bands with very direct links. I avoid most of it besides Moonsorrow, who have no direct links but toured with another band who are said to, and subsequently defended as 'friends' after the fuss it caused - perhaps I should discount them too, they are one of my favorite bands, I don't think I can consider it a line crossed.
Edited by Winterway on Saturday 16th January 21:18
Winterway said:
It is certainly a constant question for me as a massive fan of Black metal.
Unless a person/band is outwardly left, it's all very murky. Things change, develop and can be revealed in time, in a way I think it can be part of the attraction. A lot of musicians/bands/artists did things in their youth which I am sure they regret now. Not that they're necessarily forgivable acts. Strange you should mention this ....... I couldn't believe my ears yesterday when my Wife informed me that an actor who my In-Laws previously liked is now out of favour (as far as they are concerned) because he played the part of a gay man in a recent tv drama ( I kid ye not) 
Edited by Fastpedeller on Saturday 16th January 22:03
I think it's unavoidable. Music relies so much emotion, that if tainted, it's hard to keep separate.
JS Bach is a big fave of mine, and Chaconne is supposed to have been written in the immediate aftermath of his wife's death, which colours the piece. If you found out, Bach killed his wife, it would change the experience.
On other hand, plenty of my childhood heroes such as Morrissey and Ian Brown turned out to be total dicks. But the music is so tied in with emotional teenage years, the music still makes me smile.
I don't have any problem with simple hypocrites. Eg Dylan singing protest songs about commercialism , whilst advertising panties on the sly.
JS Bach is a big fave of mine, and Chaconne is supposed to have been written in the immediate aftermath of his wife's death, which colours the piece. If you found out, Bach killed his wife, it would change the experience.
On other hand, plenty of my childhood heroes such as Morrissey and Ian Brown turned out to be total dicks. But the music is so tied in with emotional teenage years, the music still makes me smile.
I don't have any problem with simple hypocrites. Eg Dylan singing protest songs about commercialism , whilst advertising panties on the sly.
Depends on what they've done I guess, and how far it went. Two examples for me that I listened to when younger:
Lostprophets: haven't listened to their stuff since. I liked he music, but the fact Watkins wrote it when his mind was clearly warped... I cant enjoy it. The other stuff from the band members new ventures though, no problem.
As I lay dying: Lead man Tim Lambesis tried to hire a hitman to kill his wife, turned out to be a cop, and did several years inside. Didnt stop listening to them completely, but enjoyed it somewhat less until he apologized and served his sentence. He apologized to all the band members and rejoined the group, and they have been making some decent stuff. Doubt I'd have carried on had he actually managed to have his wife killed.
Lostprophets: haven't listened to their stuff since. I liked he music, but the fact Watkins wrote it when his mind was clearly warped... I cant enjoy it. The other stuff from the band members new ventures though, no problem.
As I lay dying: Lead man Tim Lambesis tried to hire a hitman to kill his wife, turned out to be a cop, and did several years inside. Didnt stop listening to them completely, but enjoyed it somewhat less until he apologized and served his sentence. He apologized to all the band members and rejoined the group, and they have been making some decent stuff. Doubt I'd have carried on had he actually managed to have his wife killed.
It's a tough one and varies case by case it seems.
Never been a fan of MJ really, can appreciate his talent but not a fan. Whenever I hear his music it's always tainted a little bit bu the thought of what he probably did too.
Kevin Spacey - one of my fave actors, will continue to watch his stuff.
Black Metal - I took a passing interest in it in the early 2000's - most of it possibly driven by the 'scandal' I remeber Kerrang or Metal Hammer running massive feature on the Church burnings etc and all the bands 'linked'
Rap - Was always a big Tupac fan, his involvement in gangs, guns, drugs etc was just part of the scene. Would people really be a fan of someone if first you told them that they were gang linked, drug using, gun using folk?
Rolf Harris - 2 little boys will never sound the same again.
Lost Prophets - After following the case and reading the judges summing up material on sentencing, Ian Watkins is a vile vile human being and every single time I put them on youtube or reach for one of their CD's it is one of the things to spring to mind, it doesn't help that he was front man too, despite others being involved in the band. Definitely tainted.
But then you look at how the media / press and history treat other superstars - Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13 year old wife? David Bowie? Jimmy Page? both involved with a 15 year old. But that's just passed off as being part of the 'scene' at the time. Elvis and his fascination with 14 year olds? All still revered by the public in general
Try telling Adam Johnson (the footballer) that noncing a 15 year old in the same way is OK....
Never been a fan of MJ really, can appreciate his talent but not a fan. Whenever I hear his music it's always tainted a little bit bu the thought of what he probably did too.
Kevin Spacey - one of my fave actors, will continue to watch his stuff.
Black Metal - I took a passing interest in it in the early 2000's - most of it possibly driven by the 'scandal' I remeber Kerrang or Metal Hammer running massive feature on the Church burnings etc and all the bands 'linked'
Rap - Was always a big Tupac fan, his involvement in gangs, guns, drugs etc was just part of the scene. Would people really be a fan of someone if first you told them that they were gang linked, drug using, gun using folk?
Rolf Harris - 2 little boys will never sound the same again.
Lost Prophets - After following the case and reading the judges summing up material on sentencing, Ian Watkins is a vile vile human being and every single time I put them on youtube or reach for one of their CD's it is one of the things to spring to mind, it doesn't help that he was front man too, despite others being involved in the band. Definitely tainted.
But then you look at how the media / press and history treat other superstars - Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13 year old wife? David Bowie? Jimmy Page? both involved with a 15 year old. But that's just passed off as being part of the 'scene' at the time. Elvis and his fascination with 14 year olds? All still revered by the public in general
Try telling Adam Johnson (the footballer) that noncing a 15 year old in the same way is OK....
Pebbles167 said:
Lostprophets: haven't listened to their stuff since. I liked he music, but the fact Watkins wrote it when his mind was clearly warped... I cant enjoy it. The other stuff from the band members new ventures though, no problem.
Yep, immediately thought of Lostprophers.Link to the new stuff?
I got rid of my Lostprophets albums and stopped playing their music as soon as the news of Watkins' misdemeanours came out. I don't think we have a sufficiently vitriolic label for his deeds.
But I still regularly get the opening riff to Shinobi Vs. Dragon Ninja in my head as an earworm to this day. Which is somewhat frustrating. I suspect because I absolutely love BMTH and the influences can be rather obvious at times. Something of theirs clearly reminds me of that era.
I can't say there's anything else I have this dilemma with. I suppose there probably is some truth to rumours about MJ, but that doesn't make me turn his music off when it comes on the radio. I will insist on listening to Chris Brown on the odd occasion and tell myself off each time as he appears to be a violent misogynistic idiot.
But I still regularly get the opening riff to Shinobi Vs. Dragon Ninja in my head as an earworm to this day. Which is somewhat frustrating. I suspect because I absolutely love BMTH and the influences can be rather obvious at times. Something of theirs clearly reminds me of that era.
I can't say there's anything else I have this dilemma with. I suppose there probably is some truth to rumours about MJ, but that doesn't make me turn his music off when it comes on the radio. I will insist on listening to Chris Brown on the odd occasion and tell myself off each time as he appears to be a violent misogynistic idiot.
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