American Magic - why didn't they release the sheets?
Discussion
Woke up to the news reporting a "spectacular capsize."
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/capsiz...
Is not as spectacular as it looked in the stills, but it is a big boat going very fast and behaving like a dinghy. But the actual capsize is quite slow and looks avoidable.
I can see that it is easy to be an armchair expert but I'm genuinely wondering why they didn't just depower the whole rig. Maybe they'd worry about the boom flapping about and injuring someone / causing damage, in which case, at least the jib? Maybe they don't have the facility to release the sheets quickly? Maybe the people who were supposed to do it had fallen over in the previous "manoeuvre". Maybe they thought it would recover and carry on? Just a cock-up?
Would be interested in theories!
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/capsiz...
Is not as spectacular as it looked in the stills, but it is a big boat going very fast and behaving like a dinghy. But the actual capsize is quite slow and looks avoidable.
I can see that it is easy to be an armchair expert but I'm genuinely wondering why they didn't just depower the whole rig. Maybe they'd worry about the boom flapping about and injuring someone / causing damage, in which case, at least the jib? Maybe they don't have the facility to release the sheets quickly? Maybe the people who were supposed to do it had fallen over in the previous "manoeuvre". Maybe they thought it would recover and carry on? Just a cock-up?
Would be interested in theories!
I don't think they can release the main completely but in any case the commentary team spotted that the running backstay had not been released and the main was hung up on it. Not a sailor myself but the impression from that commentary was that this is what caused the capsize rather than just preventing them from saving it.
Steve
Steve
Yes, you're correct, it's probably slightly easier to be an armchair expert than actually being there; my gut feeling is that the crew would probably have a slight idea of what was needed under the circumstances but for whatever reason either couldn't do it or react in time 
Quite a machine, things have moved on somewhat from the ones I'm used to.
Quite a machine, things have moved on somewhat from the ones I'm used to.
rdjohn said:
Given they had significant lead, they did not need to take the risk.
Their tactician warned them several times. They were looking good right up to that point.
Hero to Zero teritory
Exactly!Their tactician warned them several times. They were looking good right up to that point.
Hero to Zero teritory
Worth re-reading this;
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/1237237...
Steve_D said:
I don't think they can release the main completely but in any case the commentary team spotted that the running backstay had not been released and the main was hung up on it. Not a sailor myself but the impression from that commentary was that this is what caused the capsize rather than just preventing them from saving it.
Steve
This is what appears to have happened- I raced a boat with running backstays and it had to be part of the routine to get the backstay forward before the manoeuvre but it wasn't anywhere near this level of tech/skill. It looks as though the main is jammed on the leeward backstay and can't spill so this is what happens. The leeward backstay isnt doing anything as the sail is putting pressure on the mast on that side- the windard backstay is holding the mast up with the forestay.Steve
I'm not crowing, however, as that boat is going at some speed- I'd have nerfed it doing something stupid long before that!
Edited by Miserablegit on Monday 18th January 14:22
Miserablegit said:
I raced a boat with running backstays and it had to be part of the routine to get the backstay forward before the manoeuvre
On a boat I raced on, especially on downwind legs, it was impossible to have both running backstays released at the same time, as they were the only retention for the mast, so jibing was always somehow acrobatic:Pull leeward backstay in, at the same time pull main in.
When leeward backstay is set complete the jibe, release all main and ex-winward backstay (and hope for the best)
Considering that speed were probably 1/3 of these, I can easily understand how things didn't really worked out as they should have...
rdjohn said:
Given they had significant lead, they did not need to take the risk.
Their tactician warned them several times. They were looking good right up to that point.
Hero to Zero teritory
I heard from the person doing the warning there, this morning. Their tactician warned them several times. They were looking good right up to that point.
Hero to Zero teritory
Obviously team harmony is key right now, but this needn't have happened.
My opinion is that who was being listened to and who wasn't is the problem here. One I think is the best sailor I have ever seen (and definitely the best I have ever sailed with) and the other is nowhere near as good as people would like you to believe.
I'll leave it there for the root cause analysis. I am gutted for AM and really annoyed it happened too.
IforB said:
I heard from the person doing the warning there, this morning.
Obviously team harmony is key right now, but this needn't have happened.
My opinion is that who was being listened to and who wasn't is the problem here. One I think is the best sailor I have ever seen (and definitely the best I have ever sailed with) and the other is nowhere near as good as people would like you to believe.
I'll leave it there for the root cause analysis. I am gutted for AM and really annoyed it happened too.
To sum it up: internal competition, right? Obviously team harmony is key right now, but this needn't have happened.
My opinion is that who was being listened to and who wasn't is the problem here. One I think is the best sailor I have ever seen (and definitely the best I have ever sailed with) and the other is nowhere near as good as people would like you to believe.
I'll leave it there for the root cause analysis. I am gutted for AM and really annoyed it happened too.
AlexIT said:
Miserablegit said:
I raced a boat with running backstays and it had to be part of the routine to get the backstay forward before the manoeuvre
On a boat I raced on, especially on downwind legs, it was impossible to have both running backstays released at the same time, as they were the only retention for the mast, so jibing was always somehow acrobatic:Pull leeward backstay in, at the same time pull main in.
When leeward backstay is set complete the jibe, release all main and ex-winward backstay (and hope for the best)
Considering that speed were probably 1/3 of these, I can easily understand how things didn't really worked out as they should have...
My IOR boat has runners (and checkstays), usually you load up the leeward stay as the boat hardens up then throw of off the windward (that is becoming leward) as the boat goes through the wind.
if its a gybe, the main needs to be centered on the sheets and traveller to recreate teh same manoeuvre, the rest is the same, only faster and with more swearing.
we are normally executing this manoeuvre at between 5 and 8 kts displacement speed, not at 30kts on foils, not sure in that circumstance there is even time for the swearing bit ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-yvEmEqdBc&t=...
And the viewpoint from the skipper at the presser for the cause of the capsize!
And the viewpoint from the skipper at the presser for the cause of the capsize!
AlexIT said:
Ayahuasca said:
Sometimes couldn’t release the mainsheet fast enough in my Laser....
That brings back a lot of wet memories 
Watching the earlier mentioned AM crew member tear off and make the rest of the fleet look like absolute muppets is probably why he is now in AM and the rest of us are just talking about it!
pequod said:
IforB said:
As an ex Laser sailor myself, I know it well!
Watching the earlier mentioned AM crew member tear off and make the rest of the fleet look like absolute muppets is probably why he is now in AM and the rest of us are just talking about it!
Dean?Watching the earlier mentioned AM crew member tear off and make the rest of the fleet look like absolute muppets is probably why he is now in AM and the rest of us are just talking about it!
Not surprised if true!
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