I run home....
Discussion
....usually twice a week from the City to Wandsworth and I pass the time looking at the expensive rides of the high income city employees. This is a procession dominated by Merc's, BMW and Porsche and frankly its quite dull. Every so often my spirit is lifted by the sight of a Tuscan or something different.
I am passionate about TVR's and pine for one after selling my Chim 2 years ago. BUT despite the new high profile showroom in one of the most cash rich Citys in the World I can't help but feel TVR will struggle to sell cars here in London.
I've reasoned and reasoned with myself but the rational decision always goes against TVR for a few simple reasons. I vainly hope the NS era realises that to sell cars in numbers in the big smoke you need to appreciate the following simple requirements:
1) There IS a huge market of individuals crying out NOT to join the legions of M3's and 911's.
2) You need to offer a car that is robust enough to be parked outside without taking on water or developing electrical faults. Many high income households live in Victorian terraced housing with street parking. Garages and offstreet parking are luxuries of the super rich anywhere inside zone 3.
3) You need to offer a car that can sit for 2 plus weeks and not suffer from a flat battery.
4) You need a more durable engine that doesn't need to be warmed through if you want to reach out to commuters.
Once this is achieved (judging by PH threads its still a long way off, certainly in perception) TVR will then have a more secure future by achieving some good volume in a rich market. Failing this means it will remain localised to middle class households in the Shire's and home countys with driveways, garages and weekend pursuits.
Heres hoping.
I am passionate about TVR's and pine for one after selling my Chim 2 years ago. BUT despite the new high profile showroom in one of the most cash rich Citys in the World I can't help but feel TVR will struggle to sell cars here in London.
I've reasoned and reasoned with myself but the rational decision always goes against TVR for a few simple reasons. I vainly hope the NS era realises that to sell cars in numbers in the big smoke you need to appreciate the following simple requirements:
1) There IS a huge market of individuals crying out NOT to join the legions of M3's and 911's.
2) You need to offer a car that is robust enough to be parked outside without taking on water or developing electrical faults. Many high income households live in Victorian terraced housing with street parking. Garages and offstreet parking are luxuries of the super rich anywhere inside zone 3.
3) You need to offer a car that can sit for 2 plus weeks and not suffer from a flat battery.
4) You need a more durable engine that doesn't need to be warmed through if you want to reach out to commuters.
Once this is achieved (judging by PH threads its still a long way off, certainly in perception) TVR will then have a more secure future by achieving some good volume in a rich market. Failing this means it will remain localised to middle class households in the Shire's and home countys with driveways, garages and weekend pursuits.
Heres hoping.
Mr. Magoo said:
.... Garages and offstreet parking are luxuries of the super rich anywhere inside zone 3.
Not sure I agree with your sweeping generalisation
I have a small 60's terraced house with a reasonable sized garage in Putney (Zone 2/3 borders) and am not "super rich" by any stretch of the imagination. I grant you garages are unusual and not generally available with the older properties but they can be had, as can osp if you look hard enough - as I did. 
angusfaldo said:
My car meets all those criteria.
But TVR is not selling 10-year old Chimearas. It is selling 50k plus Sagarii.
The original statement says that it needs to compete with M3's and 911's not 10 year old Chimaeras??
All TVR's (except the Typhon if it ever happens) are well below the cost of a 911, and many a similar price to an M3 ragtop.
bongotvr said:
The original statement says that it needs to compete with M3's and 911's not 10 year old Chimaeras??
All TVR's (except the Typhon if it ever happens) are well below the cost of a 911, and many a similar price to an M3 ragtop.
The original statement is a comment about how TVR can compete against 911s and M3s. TVR don't make Chimearas anymore they make Tuscans and Sags etc. Therefore the comments about electric gremlins etc are made about those cars. That's why they are not relevant to a 10 year old TVR that is not made anymore.
bongotvr said:
Ok, I had the wrong end of the stick!
Having said that, if you look on the forums, there are still a lot of people having problems with NEW TVRs.
That's my point
!! Parrot said his car met all the criteria to challenege the M3 etc brigade. But the original post was about TVR building new cars that could do that.
Lordy the language is causing us difficulties today!
ok sweeping generalisations aside.... heres an example - I live in a SW London street of circa 50 houses, there are roughly 3 Z4's, 2 Audi TT's and 2 M3's....there are NO garages or lockups in a convenient walkable distance, all these cars were 30K+ and whilst great cars they are hardly statements of individuality. They're all are nice safe choices....The 3 Streets parallel either side are no different....
I live in the 'Shires' and I can empathise with Mr Magoo's view point. I enjoy a lock up garage attached to my house and I would not have even contemplated a TVR (and mine was only a £16k used Griff let alone a current model).
I also see the point that to stand the rigours of todays 'in town' culture a car needs to be bullet proof from so many aspects.
My personal view is that to meet the generally very high standards of spec and buyer expectations achieved by our Italian and German brethren that TVR would need to plow in the sort development costs that are normal for the likes of porker's and Beamers and the vehicle purchase price would have to be hiked to match.
Then every other person in the road would own a TVR because it was 'de rigeur' and it would lose all the charisma and enjoyable attributes it currently affords the minority of the populace.
I sympathise with Mr M, but he could always move to the Shires (but NIMBY)
Regards, Paul
I also see the point that to stand the rigours of todays 'in town' culture a car needs to be bullet proof from so many aspects.
My personal view is that to meet the generally very high standards of spec and buyer expectations achieved by our Italian and German brethren that TVR would need to plow in the sort development costs that are normal for the likes of porker's and Beamers and the vehicle purchase price would have to be hiked to match.
Then every other person in the road would own a TVR because it was 'de rigeur' and it would lose all the charisma and enjoyable attributes it currently affords the minority of the populace.
I sympathise with Mr M, but he could always move to the Shires (but NIMBY)
Regards, Paul
Mr. Magoo said:
1) There IS a huge market of individuals crying out NOT to join the legions of M3's and 911's.
2) You need to offer a car that is robust enough to be parked outside without taking on water or developing electrical faults. Many high income households live in Victorian terraced housing with street parking. Garages and offstreet parking are luxuries of the super rich anywhere inside zone 3.
3) You need to offer a car that can sit for 2 plus weeks and not suffer from a flat battery.
4) You need a more durable engine that doesn't need to be warmed through if you want to reach out to commuters.
parrot of doom said:
My car meets all those criteria.
TVR's sales peak was in the heady Chimaera days. Magoo and PoD are both right. Back in the late 90s, your choice of quick, versatile £30K-ish motors was M3 or Chimaera (or Griffith if you had the gonads for it).
Now look what's around. Boxster (and now Cayman), baby AMGs, berserk RS Audis, the M3 goes from strength to strength, new diet versions of the Viper and Vette, Monaro, Noble, Marcos returning...
Lots is written about TVR's abject lunacy in the quest for 500mph and 0-100 in minus three but the Chimaera was never the 'hardest' or fastest ...and yet it sold the most. There's a message in that.
TVR made its first paradigm shift when it went from wedge to Chimaera/Griffith - the cars stopped looking like k*ts to the unitiated. The market responded very positively and habitual wedge buyers happily stepped up to the new retro-curvy cars. TVR sales boomed and TVR actually appeared to be expanding out of its niche.
The second paradigm shift to TVR-engined cars was massive though. Being 'self-engined' was what made Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini a cut above Iso, De Tomaso and Bizzarrini (where are they now??). TVR entered the premier league with the AJP/S6-engined cars.
The trouble was that a company known for leaky cars didn't inspire confidence as an engine maker. Hard core TVR customers bit the bullet but the 'peripheral', 'casual' customers vanished. TVR sales dived as it retrenched into a [now different] niche.
It didn't just retrench here though, it was positively chased back by Porsche offerings hitting TVR price points ... German hot rods hitting its performance AND price points ... and booming factory/dealer/aftermarket 'personalisation' offering 80% of TVR's exclusivity points.
The Cerbera, Tuscan and Sagaris are superlative cars in every way. Stunning, quick, ultra-rare and bespoke. Inevitably they are group-tested against cars of similar price with the usual 'watch out Murcielago owners' line included in the media reports. This suggests that we can buy the virtues of the Murc we like (head turning, blistering grunt etc) for the price of an M3 - it's as if we can pluck the pleasure of a Murc with none of the pain. And that's the big lie.
Sure, you can buy a TVR for M3/Boxster money but with your supercar performance upside comes some of the supercar ownership downside. If you accept that this is the price for your pleasure, then you'll be a delighted owner.
Today's TVRs are 'cheap' supercars which is, maybe, an answer to a question not many people asked - supercars are supposed to be expensive to buy and expensive to run which is why supercar owners don't publicly bitch about leaks, flat batteries, electrical gremlins, fragility etc etc.. TVRs are less expensive to run than supercars so surely that's a good thing?
Today's TVRs are nigh-on road-legal racers. Again, the proposition may suggest that we can pluck the best bits from a racer (performance, again) without the downsides ...like components lifed in hours, £800 of tyres every weekend etc.. Crikey, if you race you break bits on a regular basis or, better, replace bits ahead of them breaking. If you don't have the stomach/wallet for that level of consumption, don't go racing. TVRs are less expensive to run than a racing car.
A TVR is SO much more useable than a Murc or a race car. And you can buy a whole TVR with the depreciation of a Murc, or for the price of a handful of races.
That's a great proposition ...for some. Maybe a few more if the 'rules of the game' were better understood. TVRs slot somewhere in the market between M3s and Murcielagos - probably in F430/Gallardo-land (the Italian idea of a 'cheap' supercar). TVRs are less expensive than both, outperform both, depreciate less ...but maybe cost more to run. And TVRs are, IMHO, so much more rewarding and fun to drive.
Current TVRs are a world away from Parrot's Chimaera. Which probably reinforces Magoo's point that current TVRs are not on most M3 owners' shopping lists. In the 90s they were, but while the M3 evolved and grew its market, the Chimaera (or rather TVR) mutated and made a new market.
>> Edited by bosscerbera on Tuesday 5th July 14:42
comprehensive and interesting comparisons from bosscerbera. I would like to think that TVR positions itself at people who want to do something sexy with their hard earn't 30 - 50K...Italian supercar market this is not.
Whilst arguably in this market performance wise if it REALLY wants to sell cars its the 30 - 50K market it needs to work on.
Somoene who's got the capacity to but a Murci doesn't think, 'oh i'll but a TVR and save 70K', if you've got that money you think, F430, Gallardo etc...
Sadly I think TVR's future is far from secure because it can't convince enough wealthy but rational potential buyers to do something different to the burgeoning German middle market sportscar.
Whilst arguably in this market performance wise if it REALLY wants to sell cars its the 30 - 50K market it needs to work on.
Somoene who's got the capacity to but a Murci doesn't think, 'oh i'll but a TVR and save 70K', if you've got that money you think, F430, Gallardo etc...
Sadly I think TVR's future is far from secure because it can't convince enough wealthy but rational potential buyers to do something different to the burgeoning German middle market sportscar.
bosscerbera said:
1) There IS a huge market of individuals crying out NOT to join the legions of M3's and 911's.
2) You need to offer a car that is robust enough to be parked outside without taking on water or developing electrical faults. Many high income households live in Victorian terraced housing with street parking. Garages and offstreet parking are luxuries of the super rich anywhere inside zone 3.
3) You need to offer a car that can sit for 2 plus weeks and not suffer from a flat battery.
4) You need a more durable engine that doesn't need to be warmed through if you want to reach out to commuters.
parrot of doom said:
My car meets all those criteria.
TVR's sales peak was in the heady Chimaera days. Magoo and PoD are both right. Back in the late 90s, your choice of quick, versatile £30K-ish motors was M3 or Chimaera (or Griffith if you had the gonads for it).
Now look what's around. Boxster (and now Cayman), baby AMGs, berserk RS Audis, the M3 goes from strength to strength, new diet versions of the Viper and Vette, Monaro, Noble, Marcos returning...
Lots is written about TVR's abject lunacy in the quest for 500mph and 0-100 in minus three but the Chimaera was never the 'hardest' or fastest ...and yet it sold the most. There's a message in that.
TVR made its first paradigm shift when it went from wedge to Chimaera/Griffith - the cars stopped looking like k*ts to the unitiated. The market responded very positively and habitual wedge buyers happily stepped up to the new retro-curvy cars. TVR sales boomed and TVR actually appeared to be expanding out of its niche.
The second paradigm shift to TVR-engined cars was massive though. Being 'self-engined' was what made Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini a cut above Iso, De Tomaso and Bizzarrini (where are they now??). TVR entered the premier league with the AJP/S6-engined cars.
The trouble was that a company known for leaky cars didn't inspire confidence as an engine maker. Hard core TVR customers bit the bullet but the 'peripheral', 'casual' customers vanished. TVR sales dived as it retrenched into a [now different] niche.
It didn't just retrench here though, it was positively chased back by Porsche offerings hitting TVR price points ... German hot rods hitting its performance AND price points ... and booming factory/dealer/aftermarket 'personalisation' offering 80% of TVR's exclusivity points.
The Cerbera, Tuscan and Sagaris are superlative cars in every way. Stunning, quick, ultra-rare and bespoke. Inevitably they are group-tested against cars of similar price with the usual 'watch out Murcielago owners' line included in the media reports. This suggests that we can buy the virtues of the Murc we like (head turning, blistering grunt etc) for the price of an M3 - it's as if we can pluck the pleasure of a Murc with none of the pain. And that's the big lie.
Sure, you can buy a TVR for M3/Boxster money but with your supercar performance upside comes some of the supercar ownership downside. If you accept that this is the price for your pleasure, then you'll be a delighted owner.
Today's TVRs are 'cheap' supercars which is, maybe, an answer to a question not many people asked - supercars are supposed to be expensive to buy and expensive to run which is why supercar owners don't publicly bitch about leaks, flat batteries, electrical gremlins, fragility etc etc.. TVRs are less expensive to run than supercars so surely that's a good thing?
Today's TVRs are nigh-on road-legal racers. Again, the proposition may suggest that we can pluck the best bits from a racer (performance, again) without the downsides ...like components lifed in hours, £800 of tyres every weekend etc.. Crikey, if you race you break bits on a regular basis or, better, replace bits ahead of them breaking. If you don't have the stomach/wallet for that level of consumption, don't go racing. TVRs are less expensive to run than a racing car.
A TVR is SO much more useable than a Murc or a race car. And you can buy a whole TVR with the depreciation of a Murc, or for the price of a handful of races.
That's a great proposition ...for some. Maybe a few more if the 'rules of the game' were better understood. TVRs slot somewhere in the market between M3s and Murcielagos - probably in F430/Gallardo-land (the Italian idea of a 'cheap' supercar). TVRs are less expensive than both, outperform both, depreciate less ...but maybe cost more to run. And TVRs are, IMHO, so much more rewarding and fun to drive.
Current TVRs are a world away from Parrot's Chimaera. Which probably reinforces Magoo's point that current TVRs are not on most M3 owners' shopping lists. In the 90s they were, but while the M3 evolved and grew its market, the Chimaera (or rather TVR) mutated and made a new market.
>> Edited by bosscerbera on Tuesday 5th July 14:42
Bang on the nail lad. I bought my Sagaris purely and utterly for the "It does what??!!! For how much??!!!"
I think Boss that the Sagaris will get many more buyers on that principle. The all round performance a Sagaris offers lifts it directly out of the Carrera territory and into 430/Gallardo/GT3 territory and suddenly as a customer you are *forced* to look at the price tags because of the sheer difference relative to performance. A 430 and Gallardo arent going to see which way a balls out Sagaris went and only the very committed are going to be sticking with it in a GT3. The interior in a Sagaris is on a different planet compared to the others....ok so the 430 at last has a decent Ferrari interior and it is more practical.
The Sagaris will herald another golden age for TVR.
....ok given but lets not drift here, TVR needs a volume car to survive, something to produce at double the numbers of the Chim and Griff.
The current offerings don't meet this because in the young cash rich community of London and other big cities 2nd hand 355's and GT3's sit more happily outside your front door (not in some post codes of course).
There is a MASSIVE market to be tapped here and the current choices are soo generic and uninspiring...no matter how well you dress it up a comparable German still looks like a rep car or something your hairdresser fancies...
The current offerings don't meet this because in the young cash rich community of London and other big cities 2nd hand 355's and GT3's sit more happily outside your front door (not in some post codes of course).
There is a MASSIVE market to be tapped here and the current choices are soo generic and uninspiring...no matter how well you dress it up a comparable German still looks like a rep car or something your hairdresser fancies...
Mr. Magoo said:
....ok given but lets not drift here, TVR needs a volume car to survive, something to produce at double the numbers of the Chim and Griff.
The current offerings don't meet this because in the young cash rich community of London and other big cities 2nd hand 355's and GT3's sit more happily outside your front door (not in some post codes of course).
There is a MASSIVE market to be tapped here and the current choices are soo generic and uninspiring...no matter how well you dress it up a comparable German still looks like a rep car or something your hairdresser fancies...
I think the Tamora was supposed to fill the gap left by the Griffith and Chimaera, unfortunately it's, er, individual looks didn't please the masses. How much is that new Marcos?
I live in South East London, in Rotherhithe. Not in a super rich block but a decent one, despite being in the middle of an ultra-chavvy area.
Anyway I am pleased to say there are no less than 2 tuscans in our underground garage, 1 lamborghini and 1 lotus esprit
Sadly they will never outnumber the dozens (literally)of boxsters and TTs down there but we try to stay different
Having said that there's no way in hell I'd leave my Tusc outside the front of my block for a few days let alone permanently parked there.
Mark
Anyway I am pleased to say there are no less than 2 tuscans in our underground garage, 1 lamborghini and 1 lotus esprit
Sadly they will never outnumber the dozens (literally)of boxsters and TTs down there but we try to stay different
Having said that there's no way in hell I'd leave my Tusc outside the front of my block for a few days let alone permanently parked there.
Mark
...and then they might survive unlike every other British sportcar manufacturer that has filed for bankruptcy, been sold, re-hashed, re-born....
They have an excellent brand and lineage but I don't think they do enough to dent the Fezza, Porsche and BMW market. Lets face it they are a long way off the Porsche on every street in SW london scenario but neither are they making any inroads into this market. In fact due to the S6 engine and resistance to offering a reliable unit, I doubt they ever will....that will only have JC waxing lyrically about TVR's demise in a few years time...
They have an excellent brand and lineage but I don't think they do enough to dent the Fezza, Porsche and BMW market. Lets face it they are a long way off the Porsche on every street in SW london scenario but neither are they making any inroads into this market. In fact due to the S6 engine and resistance to offering a reliable unit, I doubt they ever will....that will only have JC waxing lyrically about TVR's demise in a few years time...
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