996 GT3 Touring Project
Discussion
Hello.
I'm in the early stages of thinking about this and I thought I'd start a thread to get input from people who are way more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. Mainly so that I can be more informed before I start spending money.
My goal is to create the ultimate road 911. I happen to think that the 996 is the best 911, early ones in particular are a work of art. Better looking than the 993s before them and the 997s after them. I also think it was a sweet spot in terms of feels vs rust proof vs size.
The ultimate version of the 996, for me, would be a 996 C2, with GT3 running gear, and comfy suspension. The reason is that don't have 60k+ for a GT3. Even if I did, I would fuss over it because it's a collectible now, and I believe it will continue to increase in value over the long term, which means I would be less likely to want to drive and enjoy it, care free. I also prefer the pure lines of the base C2. I think many GT3s will need £££ spent to refresh them anyway, and I would want to make some modifications to them. I have never driven a GT3, but I understand that many owners find them tiresome on the road and move on due to the track focus and harshness of the suspension. Finally, if the engine goes on a base 996, it' a 6-10k rebuild. Why not buy and install GT3 running gear for 15-20k?
Why not a base 996? It addresses all the points above. Because, for me the engine is the most important part of a car. The sound, the history, the engineering. I would always be wanting a GT3 at some point but I have little interest in the later cars because (again, not driven them) but I would get bored pretty quickly with only being able to use a fraction of the capability on the road. I owned a 997.2 C2S manual for a couple of years and 20,000 miles. It was great but I didn't LOVE it.
Therefore 996 GT3 Touring.
This will be a multi-year project (if it happens) because I'm planning on collecting the bits and pieces over time, so don't expect a flurry of updates!
Rough plan is as follows:
- 3.6 GT3 engine from 996.1 (because throttle cable, more in keeping with 996 early car, and overall analogue-ness, also no interest in any more power or performance). However, if a 996.2 GT3 engine becomes available, I may choose to go with a 996.2 base car and back date it to 996.1 body panels.
- GT3 gearbox (from 996-997 era) modified with shorter gear ratios, need to see if this is possible - may be cost prohibitive
- Aftermarket suspension - GT3 spec + . Most likely Ohlins or KW V3, perhaps with some OEM GT3 bits like the stabiliser bar. Goal is plush ride, nice body control, great steering feel.
- Upgraded brakes - maybe front only, but ideally all round. Only the minimum requirement for the increase in power. Ideally want to keep 17 inch wheels.
- 996 narrow body base car. The ideal would be a 996.1 C2 manual with a sunroof in great condition, but I think there some flexibility here. The only real requirement is narrow body + sunroof. For example I think I could go for a 996.1 + tiptronic + C4. I would convert to RWD and change the gearbox anyway. This would have the advantage of the 'stiffer GT3 shell' but I'm not concerned about getting a C4 for this reason. This will be a road car.
- No spoiler, no splitter, no skirts, no ducktail, no aftermarket alloys, nothing - my concern here is aerodynamic stability and roadholding. My thinking is that 60hp over a base 996 is not earth shattering, and I'm never going to be doing more than the speed limit. I'm definitely not a driver, I mostly potter and mooch around.
- Keep all the sound deadening, carpets, everything. At some point upgrade the seats.
- If I go with a 996.1 car, MAYBE swap in a 996.2 dash/interior.
Budgeting
£5k for a base 996 (if the engine is blown), sub £10k for a high miler. In either case, car must have solid history of maintenance.
£12k for the engine - ideally low mileage
£6k for the gearbox (pre gear ratio modification)
£5k for modification / refresh for the gearbox
£6k for suspension (including labour)
£2k for the brakes (including labour)
£1500 for custom exhaust
£5k for ancillary parts, like wiring harnesses, gear knob, steering wheel, gauges etc etc
£5k for shop labour: 50 hours @ £100 per hour for installation of engine, gearbox, wiring...just to get it all working
Man maths - your input would be appreciated here.
The total is around £50k, for a car that probably will not be worth more than £25k when complete (although if broken I believe the GT3 running gear will hold its value, as will the body). So really the sunk cost, meaning the amount of money I will not be able to recover, will be £25k. I think I can live with that for a car I hope to keep for the long term. There is a possibility that this cost will be partially offset by a price increase in the 996 generation overall, and a good portion of that sunk cost would have been incurred on upgrading/refreshing a base 996 C2 anyway - as many will be tired at this point.
Am I crazy?
EDIT:
- Will the engine bolt straight in? Are any mods required to the engine carrier or the engine mounting points on the body? What about the firewall? Is the the same as the GT3 or is it modified?
- Will I need to swap the ECU OR can it be reprogrammed?
- Wiring harness - will I need to completely remove the C2 harness and replace with a GT3 harness, OR can it be modified?
- Suspension - Based on the research I've done, all GT3 suspension componenets are different: springs, dampers, mounts, sway bars. etc. But I believe all of this can be simply swapped into a base car. Is this true or is there something different about the fundamental design of the GT3 chassis?
I'm in the early stages of thinking about this and I thought I'd start a thread to get input from people who are way more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. Mainly so that I can be more informed before I start spending money.
My goal is to create the ultimate road 911. I happen to think that the 996 is the best 911, early ones in particular are a work of art. Better looking than the 993s before them and the 997s after them. I also think it was a sweet spot in terms of feels vs rust proof vs size.
The ultimate version of the 996, for me, would be a 996 C2, with GT3 running gear, and comfy suspension. The reason is that don't have 60k+ for a GT3. Even if I did, I would fuss over it because it's a collectible now, and I believe it will continue to increase in value over the long term, which means I would be less likely to want to drive and enjoy it, care free. I also prefer the pure lines of the base C2. I think many GT3s will need £££ spent to refresh them anyway, and I would want to make some modifications to them. I have never driven a GT3, but I understand that many owners find them tiresome on the road and move on due to the track focus and harshness of the suspension. Finally, if the engine goes on a base 996, it' a 6-10k rebuild. Why not buy and install GT3 running gear for 15-20k?
Why not a base 996? It addresses all the points above. Because, for me the engine is the most important part of a car. The sound, the history, the engineering. I would always be wanting a GT3 at some point but I have little interest in the later cars because (again, not driven them) but I would get bored pretty quickly with only being able to use a fraction of the capability on the road. I owned a 997.2 C2S manual for a couple of years and 20,000 miles. It was great but I didn't LOVE it.
Therefore 996 GT3 Touring.
This will be a multi-year project (if it happens) because I'm planning on collecting the bits and pieces over time, so don't expect a flurry of updates!
Rough plan is as follows:
- 3.6 GT3 engine from 996.1 (because throttle cable, more in keeping with 996 early car, and overall analogue-ness, also no interest in any more power or performance). However, if a 996.2 GT3 engine becomes available, I may choose to go with a 996.2 base car and back date it to 996.1 body panels.
- GT3 gearbox (from 996-997 era) modified with shorter gear ratios, need to see if this is possible - may be cost prohibitive
- Aftermarket suspension - GT3 spec + . Most likely Ohlins or KW V3, perhaps with some OEM GT3 bits like the stabiliser bar. Goal is plush ride, nice body control, great steering feel.
- Upgraded brakes - maybe front only, but ideally all round. Only the minimum requirement for the increase in power. Ideally want to keep 17 inch wheels.
- 996 narrow body base car. The ideal would be a 996.1 C2 manual with a sunroof in great condition, but I think there some flexibility here. The only real requirement is narrow body + sunroof. For example I think I could go for a 996.1 + tiptronic + C4. I would convert to RWD and change the gearbox anyway. This would have the advantage of the 'stiffer GT3 shell' but I'm not concerned about getting a C4 for this reason. This will be a road car.
- No spoiler, no splitter, no skirts, no ducktail, no aftermarket alloys, nothing - my concern here is aerodynamic stability and roadholding. My thinking is that 60hp over a base 996 is not earth shattering, and I'm never going to be doing more than the speed limit. I'm definitely not a driver, I mostly potter and mooch around.
- Keep all the sound deadening, carpets, everything. At some point upgrade the seats.
- If I go with a 996.1 car, MAYBE swap in a 996.2 dash/interior.
Budgeting
£5k for a base 996 (if the engine is blown), sub £10k for a high miler. In either case, car must have solid history of maintenance.
£12k for the engine - ideally low mileage
£6k for the gearbox (pre gear ratio modification)
£5k for modification / refresh for the gearbox
£6k for suspension (including labour)
£2k for the brakes (including labour)
£1500 for custom exhaust
£5k for ancillary parts, like wiring harnesses, gear knob, steering wheel, gauges etc etc
£5k for shop labour: 50 hours @ £100 per hour for installation of engine, gearbox, wiring...just to get it all working
Man maths - your input would be appreciated here.
The total is around £50k, for a car that probably will not be worth more than £25k when complete (although if broken I believe the GT3 running gear will hold its value, as will the body). So really the sunk cost, meaning the amount of money I will not be able to recover, will be £25k. I think I can live with that for a car I hope to keep for the long term. There is a possibility that this cost will be partially offset by a price increase in the 996 generation overall, and a good portion of that sunk cost would have been incurred on upgrading/refreshing a base 996 C2 anyway - as many will be tired at this point.
Am I crazy?
EDIT:
- Will the engine bolt straight in? Are any mods required to the engine carrier or the engine mounting points on the body? What about the firewall? Is the the same as the GT3 or is it modified?
- Will I need to swap the ECU OR can it be reprogrammed?
- Wiring harness - will I need to completely remove the C2 harness and replace with a GT3 harness, OR can it be modified?
- Suspension - Based on the research I've done, all GT3 suspension componenets are different: springs, dampers, mounts, sway bars. etc. But I believe all of this can be simply swapped into a base car. Is this true or is there something different about the fundamental design of the GT3 chassis?
Edited by chappardababbar on Tuesday 26th January 10:09
I can't remember the name of the video - if I find it, I'll add it here - but I saw a 'recommended watch' vid on YouTube last week about a company who GT3 swapped a 997.1 for a customer.
It was not a simple process:
The GT3 engine / gearbox is longer than a standard M97 unit, so they had to cut out and fabricate new engine mounting points.
As above for the exhaust engine mounts.
It required a custom harness as the GT3 lump has completely different connectors to the standard engine.
IIRC the suspension can be more or less a straight swap as the mounting points are the same, as there weren't any serious differences until the 996 GT3 RS.
I think the instrument cluster was done in the ECU coding, but don't quote me on that.
Now, while the above does concern a 997, I can't believe you won't have the same or more issues with a 996, but it's certainly an intriguing project!
It was not a simple process:
The GT3 engine / gearbox is longer than a standard M97 unit, so they had to cut out and fabricate new engine mounting points.
As above for the exhaust engine mounts.
It required a custom harness as the GT3 lump has completely different connectors to the standard engine.
IIRC the suspension can be more or less a straight swap as the mounting points are the same, as there weren't any serious differences until the 996 GT3 RS.
I think the instrument cluster was done in the ECU coding, but don't quote me on that.
Now, while the above does concern a 997, I can't believe you won't have the same or more issues with a 996, but it's certainly an intriguing project!
STiG911 said:
I can't remember the name of the video - if I find it, I'll add it here - but I saw a 'recommended watch' vid on YouTube last week about a company who GT3 swapped a 997.1 for a customer.
It was not a simple process:
The GT3 engine / gearbox is longer than a standard M97 unit, so they had to cut out and fabricate new engine mounting points.
As above for the exhaust engine mounts.
It required a custom harness as the GT3 lump has completely different connectors to the standard engine.
IIRC the suspension can be more or less a straight swap as the mounting points are the same, as there weren't any serious differences until the 996 GT3 RS.
I think the instrument cluster was done in the ECU coding, but don't quote me on that.
Now, while the above does concern a 997, I can't believe you won't have the same or more issues with a 996, but it's certainly an intriguing project!
Thanks! I'll try to find the video. It was not a simple process:
The GT3 engine / gearbox is longer than a standard M97 unit, so they had to cut out and fabricate new engine mounting points.
As above for the exhaust engine mounts.
It required a custom harness as the GT3 lump has completely different connectors to the standard engine.
IIRC the suspension can be more or less a straight swap as the mounting points are the same, as there weren't any serious differences until the 996 GT3 RS.
I think the instrument cluster was done in the ECU coding, but don't quote me on that.
Now, while the above does concern a 997, I can't believe you won't have the same or more issues with a 996, but it's certainly an intriguing project!
chappardababbar said:
Thanks! I'll try to find the video.
Found it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=2c...Sounds cool and I also always wanted to do sth similar. I agree the 996 is the perfect base car for building a perfect road car (and while they are IMO not the prettiest 911, they are aging nicely)
I remember a 996 convertible or Boxster for sale on mobile.de that supposedly had a GT3 engine - can’t remember details, but seems it is definitely possible
I also saw a narrow body, standard looking 996 for sale at some point with c 600 hp. I believe that was also based on a GT3 with a Turbo on top
finally I think somebody on here owns a Ruf modified GT3 with a ducktail
I remember a 996 convertible or Boxster for sale on mobile.de that supposedly had a GT3 engine - can’t remember details, but seems it is definitely possible
I also saw a narrow body, standard looking 996 for sale at some point with c 600 hp. I believe that was also based on a GT3 with a Turbo on top
finally I think somebody on here owns a Ruf modified GT3 with a ducktail
Surely you'd be better off starting with a comfort GT3 and then "upgrade" parts like the suspension to be more road specific? £12k for a GT3 engine sounds optimistic.
I've done similar but with a 997.1 GT3. Sunroof, comfort seats, rear seat belts installed etc.
Alternatively a GTS might be a better option for your £50k budget and ticks a lot of your boxes.
I've done similar but with a 997.1 GT3. Sunroof, comfort seats, rear seat belts installed etc.
Alternatively a GTS might be a better option for your £50k budget and ticks a lot of your boxes.
The engine Bay has different panels on a GT3 shell than a C2 shell, you'll need to get the engine mounting panel from either Porsche or a breaker, cut out your existing one and weld in the new panel. The other panel is meant to accommodate the dry sump tank and opinions vary on whether you actually need it - it may be there to make room for the engine to move in a crash, so there's enough room during general/non-kinetic-overload situations.
C2/C4/GT3 shells are visually identical, my suspicion would be that (possibly by a significant margin) it would be cheaper to start with a leggy GT3.
C2/C4/GT3 shells are visually identical, my suspicion would be that (possibly by a significant margin) it would be cheaper to start with a leggy GT3.
AndyWoodall said:
Surely just buying a leggier GT3 or saving that extra 10k up would be far easier.
These aren't delicate cars, they can be used. Buy one and drive it. Unless you like project cars, in which case have fun!
^^^ This.These aren't delicate cars, they can be used. Buy one and drive it. Unless you like project cars, in which case have fun!
I'd buy a higher mileage 996 GT3 Comfort.
Soften suspension if required. Change spoiler, perhaps add a ducktail.
If you make changes that are reversible and keep the parts you won't lose much money in the longer term. Plus you won't have the wasted costs of engine install which you will never get back.
You won't end up with a bitsa 911, it'll still be a 996 GT3.
STiG911 said:
Thanks for linking this.. don't know that this ever popped up in my feed - but its a really good film - really really enjoyed that.Projects are both fun and a ball ache that the same time. Guess thats why we love them
That said in this case for the OP - like others have said - I'd probably start with an older/cheaper/leggier comfort GT3 and bring that back to spec and add the parts that I wanted.
Try finding poppopbangbang’s thread on here about his 996 that he uses for massive continental trips. I believe he used to use it for delivering parts to European GPS every now and then. He’s an F1 engineer of some sorts. It’s a fantastic read and might give you some ideas about how to go about modifying it. Where he got things from and who he used.
Might be of no use at all but it’s a good read.
Might be of no use at all but it’s a good read.
TDT said:
STiG911 said:
Thanks for linking this.. don't know that this ever popped up in my feed - but its a really good film - really really enjoyed that.Projects are both fun and a ball ache that the same time. Guess thats why we love them
That said in this case for the OP - like others have said - I'd probably start with an older/cheaper/leggier comfort GT3 and bring that back to spec and add the parts that I wanted.
Didn't want to completely scare off the OP, but it's good to know that someone has at least attempted it - even if it is on a 997 - so he knows what the baseline is.
Martin is, FWIW, putting a 996.2 GT3 engine into a 996 C4S shell at the moment, he's documenting the engine (re)build first, where he's taking the capacity up to four litres because a) the engine had seen better days and b) whilst you're in there....
Here's the thread, he links through to the YouTube videos that he's making along the way:
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=138960
Here's the thread, he links through to the YouTube videos that he's making along the way:
http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=138960
I'd say your figures are optimistic. They would be optimistic if you were doing much of the work yourself but as you say (including labour) on a few of the easier items I'm guessing you'd be paying people to do much if not all of the work?
Just buy the GT3 as a more sensible option due to higher retained value. Or look at other less costly options like a 996./1 with a Hartech capacity bump, KWs with adjustable ARBs and arms and just do the build as a running, usable project car.
Just buy the GT3 as a more sensible option due to higher retained value. Or look at other less costly options like a 996./1 with a Hartech capacity bump, KWs with adjustable ARBs and arms and just do the build as a running, usable project car.
i have never looked into it but i can't see a GT3 engine getting installed for anywhere close to that money.
My guess is all said and done your project would cost a lot more than a GT3.
Much easier to start with a GT3 and soften suspension. Or go with a larger displacement rebuild with some performance mods.
I like the idea though and have been hot rodding my own 996 for a couple of years now with mych enjoymen - from the financial perspective only buying a GT3 from the outset makes more sense
My guess is all said and done your project would cost a lot more than a GT3.
Much easier to start with a GT3 and soften suspension. Or go with a larger displacement rebuild with some performance mods.
I like the idea though and have been hot rodding my own 996 for a couple of years now with mych enjoymen - from the financial perspective only buying a GT3 from the outset makes more sense
chappardababbar said:
Hello.
Am I crazy?
Yes.Am I crazy?
You are saying on one hand you are worried about buying a GT3 and using it for fear of it losing value (because it's "collectable"). But you also state you're happy to blow £25-30k on the sunk costs of creating your Touring from a cheap knackered C2.
For a start, as others have said - the cost and time (complexity, sourcing parts and expertise) to do what you propose is being underestimated. And your estimates are around £50k on the project before anything goes wrong?
Putting some softer dampers, a different rear wing and maybe some back seats into a 996 GT3 is inexpensive and a piece of cake in comparison.
The money you're willing to lose on sunk project costs could easily be used for some financing to purchase a GT3. I guess it depends on whether you want a massive multi-year project, or a car to drive.
Have you driven a non-gt3 996?
For a road car, I dont see what GT3 running gear would add to the experience. I’ve not driven a GT3 but do have a 996.2 C2 and its a very capable car - munching miles, spirited B roads, trips to Sainsburys - it does them all well.
I think you could do the project omitting anything GT3 (except for maybe a gear shifter!) for £25k less. Running car with bore score, hartech 3.9, carefully chosen suspension. It will still cost more than its worth but get a few years use out of it and it should even out (I base my man maths on 4k p.a. tintop depreciation) obviously you wont have this on the 996!
Ian
For a road car, I dont see what GT3 running gear would add to the experience. I’ve not driven a GT3 but do have a 996.2 C2 and its a very capable car - munching miles, spirited B roads, trips to Sainsburys - it does them all well.
I think you could do the project omitting anything GT3 (except for maybe a gear shifter!) for £25k less. Running car with bore score, hartech 3.9, carefully chosen suspension. It will still cost more than its worth but get a few years use out of it and it should even out (I base my man maths on 4k p.a. tintop depreciation) obviously you wont have this on the 996!
Ian
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